FAQ
Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?
A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
ITT: people calling for revolution who will never do a damn thing about it. It’s easy to pretend violence is the answer when you’ll never participate, let alone start something.
Way too many of these chucklefucks just want to LARP as pure and radical revolutionaries. My wife and I are disabled and live on a fixed income of her disability payments and the SNAP program. If this “revolution” they want so bad does come, then we’re among the most likely to just fucking starve in the disruption. I’m also one of the people the GOP declared they want to “Eradicate from Public Life” with Project 2025.
Now, I’m not much of a Genocide Enjoyer. I think it’s one of the worst things you can do in fact. But I also don’t take too kindly to being effectively told that I specifically should just die because these wannabe revolutionaries refuse to entertain a world where we both vote for Biden to keep Trump from destroying democracy more than the GOP already has (harm reduction), AND engage in direct action to push Biden away from blindly supporting Israel.
Refusing to vote for a genocide supporter IS a form of direct activism.
Ah yes. Direct action. Famously done by checks notes Not doing something. So brave.
Not doing something would be to continue to vote for a president who is funding a genocide.
Nah, I’m good. I’ll continue to vote for Biden because he’s infinitely more likely to be swayed to stop the genocide than Trump who if I’m not mistaken has literally expressed a desire to accelerate the genocide on top of all the other heinous shit in Project 2025.
You can hate me all you want for not lining my family up to starve to death in “muh glorious revolution” or to lose our means of continuing to live when Trump tries to gut the Social Security that my family lives off of, or the SNAP benefits that feed us, or however they decide they want to eradicate my disabled trans ass from public life. Call me selfish for wanting myself and my family to continue living in addition to doing what I can to stop the genocide. I really don’t care. LARP away my dude.
How does voting for someone who is funding a genocide going to sway that person to stop funding it? It’s just illogical. There are plenty of Democrats who are active Zionists and support the war, probably a fair number are wealthy donors. The only way to sway the policy of the Democratic party is to threaten to their power.
I don’t think you’re selfish, and I don’t hate you lol, I just think you’re not seeing the enormous potential of forming a leftist voting coalition. Imagine how amazing it would be if the Democratic Party was trying to cater to the votes of leftists, and not to “moderates” who think that an openly white nationalist candidate is a viable potential option.
That would be fantastic, I’d love it if the Democrats would stop doing what they’ve been doing the last 30+ years of punching left and chasing the “Moderates” rightward. But let’s think about this logically for a minute. What are the possible outcomes of what you’re proposing?
- Coalition Victory. We install an actual leftist in the White House. Fantastic. No more Genocide. We have a little socialism as a treat maybe? No notes. I love it. But that means we have right now about 7 months to produce or align behind a 3rd party candidate, one who likely won’t be allowed on the ballot in several states, Then that candidate has to get enough votes to beat BOTH Biden and Trump meaning they basically have to pull at least like 18% of the vote from both sides in enough states to win the Electoral College.
- Trump Victory. Considerably less fantastic. Democrats blame the Leftists for Biden’s loss as usual. Okay, we threatened their power and now maybe we can convince them that they need us to win in 2028 rather than them moving even further right as they have since Clinton. But meanwhile we still haven’t stopped the Genocide, Donnie’s probably gonna attempt to speedrun it in fact, we’ve got Project 2025 to worry about. I don’t know about you, but I don’t think Gaza’s going to last until 2028.
- Biden Victory. Not as bad as Trump winning. Genocide is still happening in Gaza, unlike Trump he at least might be able to be convinced to end the genocide in a sense other than the Completionist one. Only now we’ve proven to the Democrats that they don’t need the leftists at all actually and they’re free to move as far right as they wish. So maybe we even lose that.
Maybe we get incredibly lucky and Trump gets screwed over by these prosecutions and splits the GOP thus lowering the threshold for us to get an actual Leftist in? I’m not sure we can count on it with how the Judiciary is bending over backwards to try to delay these prosecutions until the election where presumably they’d all “have to get put on hold because it’s looks bad to be putting a presidential candidate on trial.” Y’know, that old chestnut.
Realistically, we have to reckon with the fact that First Past the Post Winner Take All Voting and the Electoral College screws us here. There’s a reason these systems mathematically tend towards a 2 party system. It’s incredibly frustratingly difficult, nigh on mathematically impossible to break through the tendency for Strategic Voting that this system breeds. It’s the Prisoner’s Dilemma, but on a massive scale. A scale where we can only afford what, maybe a hundred thousand people getting scared and bailing on the plan at most for us all to get the worst possible outcome?
Even if you assume those LARPers are willing to sacrifice themselves in bloody revolution for the good of the common folk…
Who do you think suffers most when civil war disrupts supply chains, essential services, and the legal system?
It’s the dang common folk they’re supposedly dying to protect!
As easy as it is to vote, its even easier to whine about why not doing it is better(?) Maybe?
Then they come at u like theyre so very superior for not voting. Like theyre going to start a revolution by yelling at the people supposedly closest to them in ideology. Bc, clearly, voting is only done by libs, so if u advocate for voting ur a superlib. Then theyll simp for china or russia, and act like even neoliberal countries dont have leftist parties attempting to participate in the government theyre so keen on making u forsake.
Almost like theres a vested interest in there… somewhere…
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Not in America, but I’m trans and have a number of trans friends in the states who are really scared right now. I live in Australia and have participated in pro-Palestine protests (if that’s who you’re implying with that). I loathe Biden, I think he’s a shitty old white dude, and I wish y’all could do better. But if protesting against Biden allows Trump to be elected, then there WILL be far worse consequences, both domestically and abroad. Thousands of trans people will lose their lives, and countless more will lose access to life-saving care. He will likely cut off support to Ukraine considering how he’s ingratiated himself to Putin before. He hasn’t indicated he’d stop supporting Israel either.
But if protesting against Biden allows Trump to be elected, then there WILL be far worse consequences
That’s 100% on Biden for being a legit protest target, not on the individuals with a moral compass who are pointing out his issues.
If we don’t want our non-fascist option to be protested against because it means they lose then there should be a better choice available
Well too bad. This is what we got. Either join the rest of us in reality or become yet another person helping fascists seize power.
helping fascists seize power.
See my other comment, I’m not doing that at all.
Stay mad, it’s funny
I’m sorry, but I genuinely think that’s reductive and stupid. In Australia, I get to have a choice. And every time I’ve voted, I exercised that choice to put someone other than our Democrats equivalent first on my ballot. Knowing my vote would still flow to them before electing someone who would rather see me dead. You don’t get to have that choice, and you can blame your founding father’s and the various people in control of your government since for that fact. But if you choose not to vote because Biden isn’t good enough, you are making a conscious choice towards fascism.
God. I called it in June 2016 and I’m calling it again now. Y’all are going to end up with Trump again because of people like you. And it’s going to fucking suck to be an Aussie online again for four years. Probably bloody longer.
Edit: It’s not even like 2016 where some people were sounding warning bells that Trump was going to be fascist. He’s been your president before this time around. You have seen what he is capable of, watched as he interfered with the peaceful transfer of power. If he takes office again, from my perspective, it will be the end of democracy in your country. You won’t get that choice again. At least not for a while and not without a lot of suffering first.
you are making a conscious choice towards fascism.
It’s fun to watch people write paragraphs of shit acting like they’ve got a point and then say something this objectively stupid because they don’t actually know what they’re on about.
I live in California, if I chose to not vote I’m making a conscious choice to support Biden, as that is who my states electoral votes are going to. If I chose to vote for any third party it’s the same outcome. Only if I explicitly vote for Trump (or another potential fascist) am I actually supporting fascism
But what if too many of you Californians think that and Biden loses?!
I can assure you that’s not happening here, though I’ve seen so many people online try to fear monger that it might. If t actually were a threat I’d get in lock-step for Biden to prevent fascism, but it’s not so I won’t.
if enough Californians opposed genocide to make it so that Biden didn’t get the California electoral votes, imagine the impact. seriously. it would be unprecedented.
What group of voters would be exterminated under Biden?
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Then it should be easy for every voter to call for harm reduction.
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That’s a pretty selfish thing to say. To borrow from the stupid metaphor, I don’t want the driver to continue to run people over on the way to the ice cream parlor
The route to the cliff would run over way more people, and attempting to wrest control of a speeding bus is liable to hit even more. Why not vote for the ice cream place and make the avoidance of collisions a key priority? That seems like a safer option for everyone.
As if Trump wouldn’t exterminate them harder. With just the choice between these 2 candidates, I vote for the lesser genocider and then apply as much pressure as possible to lower that genocidey-ness even more. Short of a revolution, it’s the best we can do.
And then they think they’ll be part of the vanguard when the power vacuum opens up, and will give way to a glorious socialist utopia. Guess what, turbo, you’ll be up against that wall too, and it’s just going to be roving gangs of authoritarians.
If I have to read one more both sides are terrible “take” that encourages voter apathy I’m going to lose my mind. Vote, people I don’t care who you vote for but you have to vote because apathy is how we get fascism.
Do something rather than just throwing a piss fit and encouraging others to do nothing.
Vote, people I don’t care who you vote for but you have to vote because apathy is how we get fascism.
Nervous German laughter
We will probably get fascism with our next federal state’s election, since AFD is projected to win by far more votes than any other party. Whelp.
I’ve met a young mom who, while not voting for AFD itself, does hope they will win the election because “then the voters will finally get heard and we also get to see what the party actually wants to implement, otherwise it’s just big talk but it’s interesting to see what they would do once they are in power.” …Can we not find out please? I hope it would just be big talk but I really don’t care to find out. I am superwhite but I don’t have a German passport and I don’t want to know.
But back to the actual topic, I absolutely agree with you and not voting is always, always a bad idea. Hell, not two weeks ago I went to Berlin, paid for a hotel and stood in a long line to vote for the rigged elections in Russia. I know my voice will not be heard and it still felt imperative. Please, please go vote if you’re in the USA ( - or anywhere where your voice will actually at least be counted). I hate to say it but our future also depends on what your country decides.
Oh yeah it’s not foolproof you absolutely still can have people vote against their interests but encouraging apathy doesn’t fix that
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Burn both parties to the ground and bar them all from holding office ever again.
At least this would be doing something, you have my support.
I guess it depends on the country, but here in France, our last two presidential elections were about choosing how fast fascism would come.
Not very versed in French politics but I imagine the fight to maintain democracy is difficult regardless of country. No matter how bad the choice gets though, not making it isn’t the answer.
Both texts in screenshot are agruments against apathy
This was a response to the comments.
D- does that mean youve still a mind? C-c- could we m-maybe sh-share?
Cuz I feel like itd come in handy when the foreign shills show up to tell me all about why the problem you just described is ackswallee not here on lemmy at all… i guess we just that special.
Good to see the sane comments up top, but still.
counterpoint, its not either or. this is a false dichotomy the democrats created and maintain as a rhetorical device to silence dissent. i will never vote for joe biden. ill vote for…, a couple of democrats down ballot. and that is the extent of my interaction with the legitimate systems of democracy in the US. if you dont live in a swing state, the presidential race is, effectively, not real for you. this is a basic tenant of “american electoral politics” , or as I like to call it, a tenant of US Authoritarianism
i encourage you to reconsider your position. the spoiler effect is real and so are elections and their consequences. someone is getting put into that seat and you have the opportunity to influence the situation.
this post may be helpful, encourage you to check it out
I love all the any means necessary people, like just vote for 5 seconds and get the damned ice cream. You don’t need to sabotage the bus, just act civilly inside the bus
I tried in 2016 and 2020 and the dems told me to pound sand. I’m not going to be the one getting fucked by trump. Fuck around and find out.
No.
I will never vote for Joe Biden again and no painfully stretched metaphor is going to change that.
Awesome! Are you going to vote third party?. I’m voting for either Dr West or Claudia La Cruz. I’d recommend either of them to you stranger 👈😎
Probably psl at the national level.
Nine people= voting population of USA
Three vote to drive off cliff = MAGA plurality
Two vote for ice cream = Biden voters
Four abstain because it’s shitty ice cream = abstaining voters who presumably don’t want to die but also don’t want shitty ice cream
If that’s painfully stretched, I would like to see your definition of a straightforward metaphor…I guess “life is a rollercoaster” must take some PhD level analysis to understand.
characterizing present day america as “ice cream” is patently absurd. suggesting that a second trump term would be driving off a cliff when we all survived the first one despite a literal pandemic is even sillier.
but the real crazy part is suggesting that there’s a gulf as wide as “ice cream vs driving off a cliff” between the two candidates.
the numbers are trash but that’s neither here nor there.
His first term didnt have a project 2017 courtesy of the federalist society.
Yeah, I don’t think anyone knew the extent of the administrative state and to what extent it would stymie the efforts of an executive it opposed.
I kinda think if we hadn’t had Covid there wouldn’t be a project 2025. Trump would have just left office and assumed the country was too sclerotic to make any kind of changes, but instead there at the end he got to see what it was really capable of. For all the “it hurt itself in its confusion” moments, operation warpspeed (a trump joint!) showed what the state was capable of.
Now everyone with half a brain is thinking how they could take advantage of that. It’s surprising democrats don’t have their own plan to create a unitary executive…
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
Yay, more evil!
Millions of people on the bus. Some vote to drive to place A. Some want to drive to place B. Neither is the cliff. But both A voters and B voters are using the bus-cliff false analogy to manipulate people to vote for their option.
In reality the chance that your vote would even affect the result is nearly zero.
Some vote to drive to place A. Some want to drive to place B. Neither is the cliff. But both A voters and B voters are using the bus-cliff false analogy to manipulate people to vote for their option.
Place A is “fuck everyone who isn’t the same as us, they should die!”
Place B is “people different from us shouldn’t die just for existing.”You: “both are the same.”
Yeah, misrepresentation of other group points of view is strongly represented in both groups
Which group was supporting the razor wire on the Texas border that was actively killing people?
A great example of misrepresentation.
It’s as actively killing anyone as ground actively kills people who jump out of airplane.
Should it be there? No. Is it safe? No.
But painting it as an “actively killing people” is misrepresentation of other group point of view. Thank you for a great example.
A great example of someone avoiding the topic.
On one side you have people saying “The existence of this is causing people to die, we should get rid of it.”
On the other side you have people responding “technically this thing isn’t killing anyone. It the blood loss and drowning that kills them.” and refusing to engage with the actual concern here. Also, they keep insisting “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe!”Thank you for showing that you are completely disingenuous. Someone who actually wants to have a discussion and show a different point of view does not reply with “That is a misrepresentation and I will not elaborate any further.” A person interested in a good faith discussion would say it is a misrepresentation and then state what the alternative point of view actually is.
When people refuse to do so it’s usually because the actual point of view is indefensible, so the best they can do is refuse to define it and claim everything is a misrepresentation.
Hundreds of millions of people on the bus. The difference between violent christofascism and at least a bare minimum respect for human rights is only made by a few million votes per election cycle, while a majority of voters still don’t vote at all.
And then you come in spreading fear uncertainty and doubt, encouraging more people not to vote.
Self examine whatever the heck it is you think you are doing because your position is untenable.
Guy B said “I’m gonna drive off the cliff, just the once.” Out loud, in public, on television.
Fuck you.
American with two Party system and no real choice trying ro rationalize HM?
we get it america bad. now say sth constructive please
Fight for a real democratic system now? Unionize? Abolish capitalism?
Lots of constructive things to say out there, doesn’t mean you can’t make a joke about your opressors
P.S: Also raising awareness about a problem (2-party system) is constructive even in a satirical way imho
go away if you aren’t going to do anything except troll please
Is 196 now a serious comment only community? Didn’t notice can you show me where the new rule is stated?
Also since when are satire and trolling the same thing?
Its not like i m trying to derail an argument by saying democrats and reps are equally bad or something like that, I’m pointing out the false dilemma you make with a (in all all honesty kinda edgy) joke. That has nothing to do with trolling.
One could argue your butthurt response tells I have hit a nerve there.
yeah serious comment only, no more jokes sorry 😢
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Dude Satire is always politic AND Humor.
I never said 196 is not politicial, you are constructing a strawman here. I asked since when its ONLY SERIOUS, ergo since when jokes/satire/humour are banned.
On the usa-centrism: does this mean you are not allowed to joke 'bout dumb political systems because the majority here is oppressed by said system? I don’t see how this matters here
i replied to the wrong comment here, my apologies
Ah Okay, haha no problem. I was quite dazzled someone would so obviously argue against something I never said ^^
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The most convincing argument I’ve heard for voting third party instead of for Genocide Joe is that liberals were more politically engaged and had more of an activist mentality under Trump.
Also, I’ve given consideration to the idea that “vote blue no matter who” types would likely vote for a more leftist Democrat than the ones currently being offered. In a long term strategy, if leftists refuse to vote for Democratic candidates who are too far right, then the Democrats would have to either try to appeal to the Trump demographic (which they do unfortunately do), or appeal to the leftist demographic until they get the leftist votes back.
All I see is panic. supposedly If the majority of women were pro-abortion, you wouldn’t have to worry about Trump and republicans winning the next elections. women alone would flip the red states. but apparently not all women agree with abortion.
Not voting is lazy in most circumstances for sure. What I hate is that people equate voting third party with not voting. I’m not voting blue. Y’all can’t guilt me into it. I’m voting for a third party socialist. 😏
i gently would encourage you to look into game theory and the far reaching implications of the spoiler effect under first past the post
i do applaud your commitment to morally tenable candidates, however many folks find there is a deeper opportunity for good in the voting process, at least in the current environment, and i generally concur
The threat of the spoiler effect could be used to move the Democratic Party’s policy left. You’re not thinking strategically.
feel free to elaborate im not seeing your vision right now
- leftists don’t vote for Biden. big coalition voting for a socialist third party candidate.
- Democrats lose or get scared and run someone more left next election. Democrats stop trying to appease centrists and start trying to appease leftists who will demonstrably withhold votes
pretty straightforward
kind of already happening, if on a smaller scale.
to do it full scale as you suggest you’d need a infeasibly huge chunk of capital to run against an incumbent.
Yes exactly this movement!
I am not really suggesting that a third party candidate could win during this election, I agree about the capital. But you can pressure the Democrats to take on leftist policies as much as possible by refusing to vote for Democrats, and voting for a third party alternative.
I honestly don’t see another way that Democrats would be prompted to change their policies, as it is they have remained moderate (aka conservative on a global political context). But if Democrats saw that 10% of the vote went to a Socialist, and they lost because of that?? They would change.
Right now the Democrats are catering towards conservative moderates who think that a white nationalist candidate a potentially viable option.
yeah i totally concur and have been consistently in favor of the uncommitted movement. i also think folks voting third party in deep blue states, where the risk of spoiling for a fascist win is low, aren’t incredibly off the mark. i’m not smart enough to understand polster analysis so i can’t pretend to know if these pressures are working, but i do support them.
so i don’t really get where your accusations of me not thinking strategically are coming from lol.
I appreciate you being nice. I understand the concern you have with the spoiler effect. But our country has been stuck in this lesser evil game for my whole life. That being said I also live in a very blue state. If my state were to go red it won’t be because of the few people like that vote third party.
You have to change the voting system if you want to change the game. I suggest volunteering with Election Science to switch your elections to Approval Voting, so you can vote for everyone you like, instead of just the person you hate least.
Yep I know. Sadly elected officials are needed to change the voting system so that’s largely unhelpful.
I’d love to have ranked choices voting. But like only the third party candidates would possibly do that. Candidates from team red or blue have nothing to gain by doing that and stand to lose everything by doing it.
They’re not needed in every jurisdiction. In some places you can change the voting method through referendum. It does suck when you can’t do that though. I still like approval voting over rcv, but anything is better than choose one.
And the difference between that and not-voting is what?
Not counting an air of smug superiority.
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This isn’t about the world. It’s about a specific conflict. Conflicts are us vs. them by definition. The takeover of the American gov’t by increasingly corporatist and fascist leaders is absolutely them vs. the American people, but also affects everyone in the world.
There are two ways to win this conflict. 1) Violent revolution by disorganized leftists against the most powerful military the world has ever seen, 2) voting to prevent full-on fascism and limit corporatism while building class consciousness and organizing better. The second scenario is obviously more likely to succeed, given the current state of the American left.
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It’s ok, this is Biden’s alt account and we’re aware of the situation
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Or, more realistically:
- 3 vote to drive off the cliff
- 2 vote for ice-cream
- 4 vote to drive off the cliff at a slightly reduced speed, having been assured that they might get to look at a picture of some ice-cream, but only after democracy has been saved
Yeah, I really don’t get this attitude on Lemmy. I get not wanting to crash the bus. But voting for the guy who at best will let the other guy crash the bus in the future or at worst crash the bus tomorrow isn’t the answer.
I first thought that Lemmy was a little more of the early internet forums I remember, more anti-establishment, anarchist, left wing, but there’s way too much “vote blue no matter who” which is the exact same mentality that has killed the Republican party. Is Candidate A an immoral shit bag? Doesn’t matter; there’s a D next to their name. Probably better than the guy with the R. Better not see if anyone else is on the list.
I can afford to vote my conscience. I live in a deeply red state, so my vote doesn’t matter, something Democrats could try to fix, but they won’t. Voting 3rd party does matter though, and it’s the only way to truly affect real change and make a difference. It’s the DNC and RNC’s job to field a candidate who’s worth your vote. If they don’t do that, find someone who’s worth it.
I would honestly recommend moving somewhere that federates with both lib and tankie servers because the tone/level of debate otherwise is pretty grim imho
Youre not going to get a chance to vote third party again under donnie dump, tho.
Nah, they’ll still let parties that don’t have a chance run for election. Just look at Russia, they recently had an election…
Oh yes, fair point. Like the communist party of russia. There once was many, but they ensured only the one that they could best control remains
You will never get a chance to vote for what you want became America isn’t a democracy. It’s not a democracy if a club of rich people choose who you get to vote for. That’s literally how Chinese democracy works except it’s the party instead of the oligarchs.
Cant decide if this comment is more ignorant, or defeatist…
The bus is heading for a cliff. Someone stands up and says, “this is stupid! We should change the way we make decisions so this can’t happen!” You hold that person down so they can’t stop the driver because you want to tell the driver to get ice cream after the bus drives off the cliff.
Someone has not read the faq in the OP. And either theyve missed the million and one times i call for direct action, or theyre just another bad faith actor.
The US is not a democracy, it’s an oligarchy. This is a fact. We talk about it constantly. The fact that oligarchs basically choose who can and can’t run for the two major parties, and that the two major parties control the debates, mirrors the way the Chinese Communist Party controls who can run in elections. In both cases they let the people choose between the options that are acceptable to those who are actually in charge. This is just an observation of reality.
The US was built by slave owning oligarchs who didn’t want to pay taxes for the genocide they’d been doing. They built a system od government around controlling the population. Only landed white men could vote. The facade of the system has changed over time but the system itself remains largely the same: a small group of landed white men get to control basically everything. This is just an observation of history.
The idea that any colonizer state can possibly be democratic is just absurd. Any system bult on genocide and oppression won’t magically stop being built on genocide and oppression. The system must be completely replaced.
So the question to ask is if you advocate direct action to make sure this isn’t something that can ever happened again, or if you just advocate direct action so you can go back to brunch until next time?
Buses tend to have an emergency stop that you’re supposed to hit in the event that the driver has like, a heart attack, or something, right?
