Ah, uncle Iroh, everyone’s favorite barely reformed war criminal.
What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?
The first one is better. The second one is more impressive.
True
Yes.
This is why there’s that trope where the bad guy gets killed in the process of, or just after, getting redeemed. So the story can have its cake and not have to deal with any of the icky justice afterwards. How jarring would it be to have the bad guy turn around, save the day, and then the heroes still kill them or drag them off to a trial for their crimes? So justice has to be meted out by fate rather than having to complicate our heroes.
How jarring would it be to have the bad guy turn around, save the day, and then the heroes still kill them or drag them off to a trial for their crimes?
I’d love to see that in a story!
RDR2 in a nutshell
I read that as R2D2 and was just like “…wut”
I read that as R2D2, accepted the crimes, but was trying to figure out when the hell he was put on trial for them
I mean if the villain’s redemption is well written then typically the guilt from their past actions is the punishment for said actions, and their current actions are largely focused on atonement and reparation. That sort of thing often makes them even more relatable because while not everyone has killed another person, everyone in the world has hurt someone else at some point, maybe unintentionally, maybe unknowingly, maybe due to extenuating circumstances or their own trauma, or maybe because they were just a worse person at the time. Does that mean they are never allowed to be a better person and must eternally suffer for all the wrongs they’ve committed? Is it not better to encourage their goodness in the present than to forcibly drag them back to when they were bad over and over again for the sake of vindication? Does society really benefit from that sort of thing? And what if they end up saving more lives than they’ve taken? Something to think about.
A good percentage of my novel (WIP, third draft) is about that. It takes place in this space age afterlife where objective and good space angels categorize and separate people by the development of their consciences. And the villains’ activist group is in the self-righteous category, and they don’t believe in the forgiveness and redemption of many kinds of people. The two main antagonists are a husband-and-wife duo, and the husband is bitter from tragedy after being one of the earliest fighters for womens’ votes in the US on Earth. He ends up coming to terms with the harm he’s now caused in the afterlife in the name of revenge against wrongdoers; and then the protagonists convince him that he too has the right to atone by being— and by doing— better.
Admittedly, since in this universe people can be reincarnated indefinitely, the harm that people cause (whether back on Earth or in this afterlife) is softened. As an interesting bonus, though, I will say that the villains did seize the means of reincarnation and start deciding who gets to be reincarnated— until the protagonists win, of course.
Also also, that theme is just like a quarter of what the novel has to offer theme-wise. It’s also largely about healing from childhood trauma, mental health tools, identity discovery, found family, and kinder perspectives. Also the space angels are super cool and have interesting science-fantasy powers; and the science and sci-fi stuff is really cool as well! (Yes, I did just devolve into advertising. You would have too!)
Wait not everyone has killed someone?
It’s got to be better to encourage people to be better and allow them to have a chance to change.
How many planets did Vegeta destroy that we didn’t see? We saw that one that was such a casual fucking thing for him.
Even after he turned good, he was still willing to kill a stadium full of people to get Kakarot to fight him. He acted like he was under control of the Majin spell but only went along with it until they started acting superior to him, then was just like, “nah, I just want to fight Kakarot because I’ve been training very hard and he’s usually dead these days and I miss fighting with my buddy but don’t tell anyone I called him my buddy, and I thought pretending to be under your control would get him to fight me, but I’m not going to bow to you or any of that shit.”
Though I can’t remember if he actually did kill some of them or if he just did an attack he knew Goku would stop, which would affect how evil the ruse was.
He killed those people. I guess you could argue since he knows about the dragon balls that they could wish them back after, but he still straight up killed them to get goku to fight.
Tbh I don’t think vegeta really was a good guy until he fought kid buu. He was pacified sure and maybe even on the path to being good, but that was because his target was gone and to his knowledge was never coming back. That’s why I love his turn to majin so much. It’s a hardcore backslide because his target came back and if it wasn’t for that he never would have realized how much everything on earth actually meant to him.
I don’t consider him good after going for fat buu because he wasn’t being selfless yet. Him + goku could have taken buu on but he felt like HE needed to be the one to finish the job. His sacrifice was hollow since it (despite what he said) was for him. If it really was for everyone he would have let goku join to guarantee a win.
It wasn’t until he fought kid buu that he was actually being selfless. He let himself get wailed on so goku could charge up knowing he both stood no chance and could potentially be permanently erased since he was already dead. The “you are number one” speech is the conclusion to his story and his redemption.
This became a bit of a ramble but I love Vegeta’s story and could probably keep going if I had the time
Yeah, Vegeta is ambiguously good/evil but makes the story better by being in it regardless.
Kinda like Piccolo, who clearly stated at the start of DBZ that he still intended to take over the world once he was powerful enough to defeat Goku and they were only joining forces because neither wanted the saiyans to destroy the planet, but then somewhere along the way he changed his mind, probably because of his bond with Gohan.
It’s especially interesting in Piccolo’s case IMO because he was basically born evil as a reincarnation of his father, never having a choice in the matter. It wasn’t until Gohan came along and treated him as anything but a monster that he began to realize he had a choice.
Piccolo with baby Pan in super was one of the most wholesome moments in the entire series. Especially when Goku shows up to relieve him from babysitting and he explains a bunch of stuff to a half listening Goku and then ends up just staying because he doesn’t trust Goku to remember any of it.
well hold on now, maybe that was just trauma from being short
My biggest problem with Fairy Tail.
Never got over Gajeel beating Levy within an inch of her life, then literally crucifying her for the rest of the guild to find.
And then that’s who people start shipping her with?! AND THEN IT BECOMES FUCKING CANON!?
anime fans have a nasty tendency to ship the most absolutely toxic, nonsensical, garbage pairs. That includes the creators.
You’re now the second commenter piling on as if this type of thing only happens with anime and anime fans.
Well in real life people change, so it’s weird to call it out as this weird thing that shouldn’t be happening.
I’m perfectly on board with redemption arcs. They can make for some of the best character development.
But Gajeel didn’t change. He didn’t have a redemption arc. His past actions are never confronted in any way whatsoever. His allegiance simply does a 180, and at no point is it even suggested that he has changed or grown as a person.
In fact the series makes a point of him being the “bad boy” of the group, one who is quick to anger, violent and abusive.
And then he’s paired off with one of his past assault victims? Nauseating.
He had one of the required dragon powers they needed didn’t they? Unless I am misremembering they had no option but to work with him, and during that time he did significantly change, although kept the bad boy vibe.
I really don’t see his arc being much different than someone’s like Vegeta.
Did he though? What makes you think that when he flies off the handle, he wouldn’t still beat people to near death and crucify them first, and ask questions later?
Vegeta is slightly better, but not by much. Mostly because his behaviour is somewhat more believable, as long as you’re imaginative enough to make up his off-screen self-improvement process for yourself.
Redemptions need to be earned. They do not work if the author just goes, “they’re a good guy now”.
I need to see the way the character thinks change, in a believable process with logical progress that I can comprehend.
Pulled from the internet, but yes.
One of the best examples of this is Gajeel. After Phantom Lord’s disbandment, he’s sitting alone in silence until Makarov comes and talks to him, asking him who he really wants to be and what he believes his future holds for him. Makarov offers him a place in Fairy Tail, and when Gajeel reminds him he’s the one who attacked and crucified the three guild members, Makarov’s face darkens and he still expresses clear hatred for this crime. Makarov clearly states that he still hasn’t forgiven him for this, but he can’t just let Gajeel wander in darkness and walk down a worse path knowing he could’ve helped him. And when he joins the guild, everyone is immediately hostile. Almost none of them accept him, and Shadow Gear later confront him and begin attacking Gajeel, until Laxus joins in and blasts him with lightning. But Gajeel accepts this punishment and does nothing to defend himself, allowing them to get their anger out. Here, he acknowledges his crimes and has to make a genuine effort to redeem himself, which he does in the following arcs.
Sometimes you need to read a little between the lines and look at how they do act differently, but similarly. It’s there, you can also choose to see that they haven’t changed, that’s the great thing about narratives, leaves a lot to interpretation.
deleted by creator
What’s wrong with showing that people can be redeemed and change their ways?
Isn’t that the whole point of the courts and jail systems IRL in the end? It’s wild that people can’t handle something that’s quite honestly how humans should be.
deleted by creator
Also, you’re incredibly naïve if you think jail is meant to be reformative.
You must be American? It works elsewhere pretty damn well with very low reincarnation rates, can’t say the same in places where it’s a business instead. It’s also a problem when people steal some bread just to get themselves off the street for a couple nights with a guaranteed meal……
This is also more about the meme in general than the specific Fairy Tale case, but to think that no one deserves redemption is just frankly an extremely shitty way of thinking.
Not what I said but sure you can keep forgiving the most unforgivable characters in fiction if you want I guess.
It’s more why get hung up on a specific example? Vegeta did far worse and yet he’s a fan favorite, so why is Gajeel so bad?
Also, as I stated it’s more to do with the meme than the specific case someone brought up, everyone can be deserving of redemption, not everyone will agree obviously, but to say that some people don’t deserve it only speaks volumes of your character.
Some people don’t deserve redemption.
Mrw I’m one of the dozens of children Orochimaru killed:
Leaf village be like “Welcome back to the village Sasuke Uchiha, man who was a member of three different terrorist organisations, attempted to assassinate every world leader at once, and was complicit in the kidnapping, experimentation, and murder of children for several years! We’re all weirdly ok with this.”
Remember kids, it’s easier to get forgiveness than permission.
That’s my motto at work
hilarious how this guy became a meme. I hope he earns at least $1 every time someone posts a picture of his trying -so-hard-to-stay-awake face on the internet.
This is why I like the Halo expanded lore. There’s a lot of guilt and grudges when it comes to Thel Vadam in Halo. Dude led fleets that killed millions of humans. He just accepts that he’ll never make up for it, no matter how much good he does for humanity after the war.
It also goes into how, even though he was manipulated by the Covenant, he’ll never stop feeling guilty. But he’s the only Sangheili leader that is 100% devoted to peace with the humans, so most humans aren’t willing to take a shot at revenge.
Just use the Dragonballs to revive them
Reminds me of Sylar from Heros. Man killed a lot of people. Like, a lot. If memory serves, he became a “hero” in the last 10 minutes of the last episode.
The village of Nameks that Vegeta massacred, including children. And the planet of bug people he killed on his way to Earth with Nappa.
He didn’t even become actually “good” until after he kills himself. Never atoned AFAIK
Thank you Fred Johnson!
Fred Johnson is such a great character. The Expanse writers absolutely nailed him in the books as he puts everything into atonement with the Belters. I need to read the Fred Johnson short story soon
Accelerator’s redemption arc made him my favorite character and you loser teenagers can get mad at me all you want
Accelerator wasn’t inherently evil though, he was practically cultivated to be a killing machine for the sake of Level 6. Like yeah what he did was absolutely horrible and fucked up, but that’s kinda what happens when you make a child kill more than 10,000 people that were actively attempting to harm him.
I did always like the twist of fate where his life is now dependent on his former to-be victims. I had no qualms with his redemption arc.
Teal’c.
Teal’c was always willing to pay for what he did in his past evident in Cor-ai. I don’t know if I would classify him as a villain. His whole backstory basically consists of him being trained by Bra’tac to take down the false gods
Tealc was a soldier/slave just mostly obeying orders to survive. He jumped at the chance to rebel.
