Pope Francis condemned the “very strong, organised, reactionary attitude” in the US church and said Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.
Pope Francis has blasted the “backwardness” of some conservatives in the US Catholic Church, saying they have replaced faith with ideology and that a correct understanding of Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.
Francis’ comments were an acknowledgment of the divisions in the US Catholic Church, which has been split between progressives and conservatives who long found support in the doctrinaire papacies of St John Paul II and Benedict XVI, particularly on issues of abortion and same-sex marriage.
Pope Francis is completely right.
I’d say he’s left
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The Catholic Church literally supported Nazis back in the day.
Pope Francis’ condemnation indicates that at least they learned from that mistake.
Where “learning” from that mistake means:
“Hey, check what most people have been thinking about X for the past 50 years… OK, we’ll support that”
Pope Francis was 9 years old when WW2 ended, so get off your high horse.
Because the Church didn’t exist before the current Pope?
Also historical facts are a “high horse” now? Have we really fallen so far that reality is unacceptable?
To be fair that’s because Hitler lied about being the most catholic ever and by the time they realized who he really was Italy was in too deep.
Dude was actually going to ban Catholicism after awhile, had already made a banned religions list that was slowly working its way up.
Unsurprisingly Judaism was the first on this list, more surprisingly Ievoha’s Witness was the second.
JWs were only targeted because their leader went out of his way to piss off Hitler:
“Nevertheless, the Catholic-aligned Centre Party voted for the Enabling Act of 1933, which gave Adolf Hitler additional domestic powers to suppress political opponents as Chancellor of Germany”
Thanks for confirming what I said. Catholics supported facisim regardless of what their leader said, just like today.
Wake me up when Catholics aren’t forced-birth advocates that will vote in any fascist that aligns with their single issue.
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doesn’t mean shit
It could to people it’s targeted at. I know a lot of devote catholics because I was raised in that faith. Some of them might actually listen to these comments from the pope. At the very least, if they defy the pope, then they’ll at least stop affiliating with the church.
If they stop affiliating with the church, that’s a win IMO. these people don’t follow Jesus
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And that conman was (at the very least) a friend of a very famous child sex abuser.
I think the wedding of capitalism and religion is an unholy one. As soon as people get tax breaks and shit for religion it becomes a scam fest.
John brown used religion to justify blasting some slavers at harper’s ferry and I can’t think we don’t need more of that good spice today.
There are certain people that need some kind of easing of burden that religion can bring, but prosperity gospel and similar are essentially a type of necromancy where you steal as much power as you can from living humans to power your divine money machine.
Both parties are completely bed with and owned by corporations and they don’t give a fuck about regular people. That’s the actual problem with them.
You know you’re screwed up when a kiddie fucker calls you backward.
Says man who leads an organization that hasn’t changed in 2000 years.
You are an ignorant blowhard if you believe what you just said. I’m not going to say they are up with the times but what you said is stupid. The fact that mass is done in the local languages instead of Latin was huge! And they also recognize that big bang theory and the sun is the center of our solar system which exists in the Milky Way galaxy that isn’t the center of the universe.
I would hope they recognize the Big Bang theory, given that the idea was first put forward by a Jesuit.
But seriously, a lot of people don’t really get how big the switch from Latin was. My dad attended church pre- and post-Vatican II and said that so many people complained loudly that we’d no longer have mass in a dead language. I guess the Liturgy of the Eucharist used to be done with the priest facing away from the congregation and a lot of people also complained when it was done facing the congregation. God forbid the plebes feel like participants in their own religion.
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This is why I differentiate between Christians and Xtians
Replacing faith with ideology - so doing things because you think they are right is worse than doing them because god tells you to?
From a believer POV obviously
The whole point of organizing religion is telling people “you are
so dumbmisguided by the Devil so our scholars gonna tell you how to behave”To be fair, we all start out as dumb as children which is why a lot of religions get the children involved as young as possible. When it’s “the way it is” for most of your life, it’s hard to break free.
I mean … in this case they’re not wrong.
In most Christian religions if you don’t explicitly say Jesus died for your sins centuries before you were born, literally nothing else matters.
You can follow every rule because you personally agree with it. But if you don’t submit to Jesus (and by extension your church’s chain of command) then you’re going to hell.
So if you’re just doing what’s right by your personal morals, it doesn’t “count” even if it agrees with church teachings.
Obedience is more important than anything else.
And by the same token, you can torture, kill, and eat people and still go to heaven if you accept Jesus before you die. Jeffrey Dahmer was baptised in prison and apparently that made everything all right.
It’s a bonkers belief system if you think about it. It definitely doesn’t encourage being a good person like it claims to.
That’s fine if you give up the sanctimony of saying that God is on your side. Otherwise, you’re dishonest.
I have a hard time understanding how anyone could have genuinely misinterpreted this.
Broken clock right twice a day, etc.
American conservatives really hate that this pope prioritizes Jesus-y stuff like love, forgiveness, and taking care of your fellow humans.
I have a bunch of Catholic family members that are much more into being angry, fighting to shove dogma down everyone’s throat, and not helping anyone that doesn’t sit in the pew next to them.
Vatican Girl sheds some light on that, great show.
Could you summarize what they found?
I’m in episode 2 out of 4 and so far,
spoiler
It’s about a girl from a family that lived on Vatican grounds who was kidnapped. We know the mob and the Vatican are working together and the pope tried to cover it up. The pope was backing a Polish group that was going after communism in Russia. The US and the pope were on the same side for this one issue. The bank on the Italian side of the Vatican walls were laundering money so the pope could send money to the group that was going after communism. The girl who was kidnapped and probably killed was a warning to the pope that the mafia wanted their money back since the money was supposed to go both ways, but stopped at the Vatican. The last time we have info on the girl is that the mafia dropper her off to a person dressed as a priest.
That’s how I understand it, it’s complicated and they’re going through it as the journalist discovers information. This journalist is amazing and did a deep dive on their finances. I grew up catholic and still think of the religion and a lot of my friends and family as awesome, but that church was corrupt all the way down to the small parishes. The small parishes just did it in a different way.
Mind you, none of that is 100% true. It’s just one of the most likely hypotheses. No one will ever know for sure what the hell happened to that girl.
Read the journalist’s books on the finances or “Vatileaks”, it’s more likely than not.
I don’t think that’s very fair, he’s been very consistent in his positions from everything I’ve ever heard about the man. He won’t directly come out in support of LGBT, pro-choice, or contraception, but he hints that the church might be on the wrong side of many issues and is very vocal about the message of love and acceptance
Keeping in mind he’s at the helm of a very large ship in a problematic place that likes to split apart, I think it’s understandable that he balances keeping the thing together with steering in a better direction
He basically said Charlie Hebdo “had it coming”. Fuck him.
Now the pos conservatives are gonna start calling the pope woke. 🤣🤣🤣
Didn’t they recently called Jesus / Christianity woke?
They’re already doing that, have been for a long time. I have a Baptist coworker who thinks Catholicism isn’t real Christianity…
I had a Catholic coworker who said some of her Catholic relatives were becoming “Christians”, which turned out to mean Evangelicals.
I had a Catholic coworker who said some of her Catholic relatives were becoming “Christians”, which turned out to mean Evangelicals.
in the US they refer to Protestants as “Christians”, mainstream Christianity is made up of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants
Right—my point is that my coworker (like the previously-mentioned Baptist) was implying that Catholics were distinct from Christians, in spite of being Catholic herself.
I was raised Catholic and the distinction was always made between Catholics and Christians. I didn’t really understand that Catholics were a subtype of Christians until someone pointed it out to me when I was a teenager - I just thought Christians was a catch-all term for non-Catholics that believed in jesus.
What country were you raised in? I was raised Catholic in the Philippines and in the US and it was made explicitly clear in my education that Catholics are Christian.
I’m from Ohio and there is a massive Catholic community in my hometown and “Christian” as a term was always used as a throwaway term for the various non-denominational evangelical sects.
Catholics and Protestants do not get along, even today. When I went to college and people thought I grew up Catholic, they would try to “convert” me away from “ancestor worship and idolatry.”
My father made that exact distinction and he grew up in Iowa.
I’m from New Jersey
To be fair, it isnt; but then neither is Evangelicism or Mormonism or any of these other wackadoo cults within which these assholes conflate their hatred and fear with faith.
What makes Catholicism fake Christianity in your view? Any faith that believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God that died for the sins of humankind meets the threshold, imo. The Catholic Church fits comfortably within that definition.
Well there is all that child sex abuse.
There’s a ton of it in protestant churches too. The national Baptist church is under federal investigation for it right now. The US has always had an easier time hating Catholics.
That is an institutional failing of the Catholic Church, it was never endorsed as a part of the Church’s dogma. While I would encourage any Catholic to ask themselves if they really should continue to support an organization that hasn’t done even close to enough to reckon with their many sins over the past two millennia, I still think it’s silly to act like they’re not Christian.
Fucking kids ≠ following the teachings of Jesus in my book.
This is also how the Catholic Church sees it.
Well then you can include baptists in that too.
the only difference between the priests and pastures is the “born again” churches do not have a central structure to follow up on it so they are all just one offs.
If I were being charitable I’d label these heretical creeds as Paulity. They have very little to do with the words and deeds of Christ, or living up to them, and far more to do with how Saul of Tarsus interpreted them.
You may recall the Catholic Church was born out of the first Nicaean Council, where they canonized the four gospels that best reinforced the idea of the supremacy of the Roman state, and burned the hundreds of other so-called “gnostic” gospels, which (judging by the content of the few that survived) far better encapsulate what I would consider “real Christianity”.
That said, the whole “No True Scotsman” fallacy really isn’t worth pursuing. It’s been this way since 325 CE, and there really is no painting a happy face on one of the most destructive and inhumane ideologies history has to offer. No matter what my opinion may be, you are correct in pointing out that the Paulity is the institution that is currently regarded as “Real Christianity”, as sick and anti-Christian as it may be.
You may recall the Catholic Church was born out of the first Nicaean Council, where they canonized the four gospels that best reinforced the idea of the supremacy of the Roman state, and burned the hundreds of other so-called “gnostic” gospels, which (judging by the content of the few that survived) far better encapsulate what I would consider “real Christianity”.
I believe you are mistaken. That was next big council. The 27 books were finalized by a man who attended the Nicaean Council. When he got back he wrote a letter stating which books he considered to be canon.
All Christians use some interpretation of Bible and Christ.
From the outsiders it’s a bit funny to observe these squabbles and the heretic accusations.
I mean, most protestant Christians dislike Catholicism, that’s why they are called protestants after all.
The new part is American evangelicals and other extremists thinking that catholicism not being conservative enough…
Not for nothing but that claim is hardly new. Goes back to the Reformation.
It’s hard to imagine now , but Catholics were not considered Christians and it was ok to openly discriminate against them. I know of people fired for that. People still try and convert me to ‘Christianity’ and claim all sorts of stuff.
The KKK and Nixon were vocally against’Papists’
Even when I was one I had zero interest in that game.
I think all religions are just fake copycats of the one true god.
Praise be Flying Spaghetti Monster
Ramen
Pork Belly
There a whole YouTube channel by some ex fox host called church militant… It’s all about hating gays and lesser religions. They talk shit about the Pope all the time.
It’s like everything in America is just power struggles, selfishness, greed, and crime. There’s no God or respect for life here. The “good guys” don’t even go after the “bad guys” because the bad guys are ahead now. People are so naive here they think heartless crimes are not happening when it’s right under their nose. Sometimes the good guys even get used in the plot. Just look at all the old politicians and Americans that got roped in Rogers stones mob puppeting of Trump. America had a mob affiliate for president. I think that puts in stone… Americas bullshit. It’s going to take decades to get trust and genuine patriotism back.
I wonder where do they think it all comes from?
To be fair, even the super conservative Catholics aren’t into this pope. Benedict was their jam.
Conservative Protestants have been saying that for a very long time though. The attitude is so pervasive that my wife, who grew up Catholic (but has not been one for decades), has to be reminded that Catholics are Christians.
Baptist coworker who thinks Catholicism isn’t real Christianity…
I’ve seen a lot of that and not just recently.
All religions think all other religions are not “real”, because of their “There can be only one!” Highlander shit.
Time for a reality check on the history of Popeing
If you have a throwaway email to see comments on the Newsmax site, it is Catholics and whatnot saying the Pope isn’t the real part of the religion anymore.
Conservatives are mostly christian, but if they aren’t catholic the pope has little sway over what they do. And they love dissing catholics so yes they will more than they have been already.
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Even the most minimal amount of compassion is a sin to these people. They’re just straight up evil at this point.
You know you fucked up bad when even the Pope is saying, “Whoa, slow it down there with the fascism, bud”.
American Catholics have largely voted Democrat for much of the last century. This flip-flop to voting Republican is relatively recent.
It seems to me to be a bit of a religio-coup. Bishops have some autonomy, and Priests some as well. It’s become increasingly common that both are in opposition to Rome on certain behaviors related to politics, and exactly how strongly they should be pushing people to vote and for what reasons. The dehumanization of Biden (publicly refusing him Eucharist) for his nuanced pro-choice views is in direct contradiction of papal behavior going back at least to the turn of the 20th century. Telling people that in voting, any sin is forgivable except being pro-choice… well, there’s no basis in Canon Law for that attitude.
I live in a very Catholic area, and have a lot of Catholic family. Talking to them, they mention their priests say “you can vote for either party, as long as they’re pro-life”. The Abortion issue is not the only or greatest issue to Rome. It is AN issue, but disagreeing with the Church is generally not going to earn their full enmity unless you are preaching your disagreement. Biden (the target of that local church smear campaign) is absolutely not preaching pro-choice to anyone.
Pope Francis is right to be saying that because American Catholic Leadership has gone WAY astray from what Catholicism allows or mandates of them.
So I think that by-and-large, the Evangelicals have had a crisis of faith and are seeking the US Catholic Church as a bastion of stability. And the US Catholic Church has been happy to accept Evangelicals into our flock, because we’re all Christian here and spreading our religion is what we do.
This has become somewhat of a devil’s deal however, as the Evangelicals have pushed the Church extremely rightward politically. Historically, the Catholic Church has been very pro-Latino, because the Hispanic community / immigrants are overwhelmingly Catholic (not just “Christian”, but proper Catholics born and raised). But in the past 10 years or so I’m seeing more and more former-Evangelicals bring their politics into the Catholic tradition.
Nominally, this crap shouldn’t matter to the issues of Church. But it does. Politics infects all wakes of life one way or the other.
In any case, I think its a good thing that (former) Evangelicals have migrated over to the Catholic church in such large numbers that this problem is occurring. And I’m not necessarily saying that we need to ‘indoctrinate’ our (former) Evangelicals to the policies or politics of the Catholics… but… maybe a little bit? I dunno. But a lot of these far-right rhetoric / fire and brimstone style religion (with anti-immigration / anti-Hispanic slants) is distinctly non-Catholic and heretical IMO.
Case in point: we Catholics finally have a 2nd president of our Faith: Joe Biden. And yet, the Catholic community was THIS close to excommunicating him. Rather than celebrate our achievement to get our 2nd president into the office, he is seen as a heretic to (half) of the US Catholic Community.
Catholic concerts are the most evil people I’ve ever met.
edit: I meant converts but those suck too.
To paraphrase the eternal wisdom of Hank Hill: Christian rock music isn’t making Christianity better, it makes rock music worse
oops meant converts but christian concerts suck too.
It’s not like evangelicals are all coming to Mass now: the priest wouldn’t give them communion anyway. Rather, what you describe is a political partnership, based on opposition to abortion, where the Evangelicals and Catholics started raising an assload of money together.
And this is what this is all about, money and political power and clout. And I think that’s what the Pope is objecting to. Catholic doctrine is clear that life begins at conception, and is worthy of protection. But there is so much more to protecting life, at all its stages: education, help for the poor and hungry, assistance for the immigrant, compassion for prisoners (and opposition to the Death Penalty). US Bishops are sacrificing the rest of it at the altar of political power.
The ironic thing is that Protestants outnumber Catholics here. If the US Bishops get the theocracy they are aiming for, it is pretty much guaranteed that these Protestant Evangelicals will be running it. And Catholics will end up marginalized again.
No no no.
I mean I’ve noticed an uptick in Evangelicals properly converting into Catholicism recently. And simultaneously, a sudden surge in people wanting “Latin Mass” and other such very old traditions. Definitely a yearning for “traditional” Religion, and (former) Evangelicals seeking Catholicism because of it.
This is absolutely a “Church” issue because it relates to the religious+political views of our relatively fresh converts (well, within the past couple of decades).
Well, I’ll have to look into this a bit more. I’m quite aware of the Traditionalists, but didn’t realize they were pulling Evangelicals in, somehow.
It could just be biases in my social group. But I feel like the Traditionalists are doing big with the Evangelical crowd and doing a good job converting them to Catholicism. For better or for worse.
With regards to Church Politics: this means that Traditionalists are the ones bringing in the new RCIA year-after-year. Meanwhile, the liberal wing tends to lose out to Atheists. You gotta think in terms of Church politics, evangelicalism and such to see why this is a problem. It means that Traditionalists are very much slated to gain tons of (within-the-church) power, given the current situation.
I definitely think this is bad for the Church overall, though I’m unsure what to make of it or what to do about it.
And simultaneously, a sudden surge in people wanting “Latin Mass” and other such very old traditions.
That’s an AstroTurf movement by conservative priests who want to be able to read the bible, no one understands what they said, then they go on a personal rant and telling them what to think and how to vote…
Mostly because they’re upset the Pope is (relatively) progressive for a pope
The Catholic Church has actively ran the longest largest worldwide Pedophile ring in human history. For the past 1800 years the Catholic Church recruited, supported, obfuscated, defended, and excused pedophilia, which continues to this day. The fact the Catholic Church still allowed to operate, in any way shape or form, with youth of any kind, in any country, anywhere, means we’ve all purposefully lost the thread.
Beside the Catholic Church being outwardly obviously criminal, and only an extension of the Roman Senate two thousand years on, it’s only shown how very little adults care about the systematic raping of children. Like, at all.
Fuck The Catholic Church. Fuck The Pope.
Ding ding ding! Correct!
You really have a point here, but I don’t think Catholic church is the only one in which these gross events happen, the thing is that being one of the largest religion along with Islam they get the most attention and media coverage around the world. It’s just common sense. So yes, there are serious problems in that church, but I bet my ass that they’re not the only ones doing that. Take the blindfold from your eyes, every religion has leaders that abuse the power they have upon its followers to commit deplorable acts.
Calling out the Catholic Church on this does not negate the fact that other institutions are also guilty.
Didn’t he start supporting gay marriage because that’s the Current Thing position now?
He’s got some balls to accuse other people of replacing faith with ideology.
I don’t think you know what “ideology” means.
I think most religions are a little late on the ball. But any kind of willingness to change is a good thing. And a, what I interpret, statement against, what I interpret, as fundamentalism seems like a good idea.
I think religions are inherently designed to have static principles though, unless the writings of origin are still being written
