There is a reason for USB-C extensions not to be part of the standard. They can be bothersome in the best case and dangerous in the worst.
I’ll have you know that I’ve been using a 2m extension on my deck power supply for a while and haven’t had any fires to speak of. Almost none actually.
Almost none so not zero?
thats_the_joke.gif
This is my ship, HMS Can’t Possibly Sink IV
If you want a more detailed explanation, USB-C is a small connector that was designed primarily for data transfer, extended power range delivery (240w) was essentially hacked on to the standard. Electricity arcing between the contacts on the connector is the biggest challenge with this hack, since the contacts are small and very close together, which could burn out the circuit board and start fires. For EPR to work safely, there needs to be a lot of extra components on the circuit board/female connector side, which there simply isn’t enough space for on an f2m extension cable.
As for why USB-C cables are so short, it’s simply a matter of physics, carrying high speed data over larger distances would result in higher losses and requires thicker conductors and more shielding, which is why you don’t see USB4 Gen3 cables over 1 meter unless they are optical, and longer “charging cables” are only rated at USB 2.0 speeds, because more often than not they don’t even have the USB 3.x data pins on their connector.
You are a brilliant woman of many talents, Margot Robbie!
That’s esteemed Academy Award nominated character actress Margot Robbie to you!
Also, thank you.
It’s a great explanation. However you have some pretty egregious use of commas that made it a lot more confusing. I had to read it over multiple times to fully understand.
It may seem like nitpicking but these subtle issues end up making it harder to comprehend and overall results in more time and effort for everyone you’re trying to inform.
I don’t seem to be able to upvote this twice.
You could always buy more copies of “Barbie” on Blu-ray for Christmas.
Just saying.
Absolute gold 🤣
I have this cable: https://www.spigen.com/products/arcwire-usb-c-to-usb-c-cable-pb2202
It’s 2 meters long, 240 watts and supports Thunderbolt 4/USB 4 (40 gbps).
I couldn’t test the 240 watts charging as I don’t have any device pulling more than 100 watts, but the Thunderbolt 4 part definitely works.
Apple sells a 3 meter Thunderbolt 4 cable (albeit limited to 100 watts of power) that isn’t optical either (I think there’s some special circuitry in the plugs though).
$90 for a cable and it’s not even braided is wild to me.
You’re right. Those are active cables which I forgot to mention earlier that have special circuits that amplify signals, but are also a lot more expensive as a result.
Will I get banned if I don’t call this person Margot Robbie, because they claim to identify as a famous Hollywood actress?
Nice explanation, thanks!
It’s amazing for a “standard” that there can be so many non-standard ways to do it. Your explanation is great and just reminded me that cable tester tools are a really good idea to have at home. There was one in Kickstarter earlier this year, I think, that was a really smart idea. I don’t recall what it was nqmed though. Maybe you have heard of it? I’ll see if I can find it.
Regardless, there are some devices that really need a specific type of usb-c cable to function properly and/or not burn the circuitry. (i.e. Nintendo Switch, the original release model (though, they may have fixed it in later hardware revisions))
Edit: Found it! That cable tester that I was referring to was called the BLE CaberQU. I think it is a really neat idea.
Anybody care to sum this up for people who can’t watch videos?
So a standard cable needs to be chipped to show its rating to the device, it not that the device tried to pull what it can, but the cable itself tells it what it can supply. Extension cables can’t do that, because it doesn’t know what it’s plugged into, and that would be if they even bothered to put a chip in. They instead piggy back off the chip for the main cable. The problem comes when you you have a 240 watt cable hooked up to a cheap 120 watt cable, with the device being told it can push 240, and starts to super heat the extension cable
Brilliant thanks
5 sentences that inexplicably need a 9 minute video to say
Fuck YouTube
Correct, except for your example. Firstly, 120 watt USB c cables don’t exist, only 60w, 100w, 140w and 240w. And only plugging in a 100w or higher cable into a 60w extension would be dangerous, since it would allow drawing 5 amps on a cable over an extension only designed for 3 amps. However, as soon as your extension is rated for 100w it is completely safe to use with any USB c cable, even those rated for 240w, as those only operate at a higher voltage but still only allow 5 amps max.
I have also never seen an USB C extension cable rated for less than 100w, so this is kind of a moot point. If 60w usb c extensions exist somewhere, they would indeed be dangerous, but I have never come across one
Soon on Amazon…
1m USB-C CABLE HEATER!! 0.99c
($5.99 shipping)
This sounds solvable, doesn’t it? Have the extension cable have a chip saying it can do X at maximum, then compare with whatever is to be extended and communicate the minimum of both upstream. Might not become a sleek cable-like design, but would extend the 240W cable with the extender safely staying at 120W
That’s an active extension cable, which is essentially a single port USB hub.
Shouldn’t it be possible to only do the negotiation part and otherwise bridge everything? Not having to do anything high-bandwidth actively should keep the silicon costs down.
Yes, and such cables already exist, like this splitter cable:
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0CRZ6JJ6D (not an affiliate link)
I wish there was a clearer explanation or nomenclature for this. With things like cables and converters everything always seems to have a black box layer.
I don’t understand why there are so many PD profiles either. Maybe Cat-1 USB-C, Cat-2 USB-C, etc? Maybe just having a smaller set of voltage-defined profiles that have a safe maximum current rating? Maybe that’s already how it is? I don’t know
There are technical reasons for why so many PD profiles exist.
In fact they were not enough, which is why the USB Standard was extended with the “PPS” extension recently, which let’s the attached device freely choose a voltage between 3V and 21V in steps of 20mv, and more importantly it let’s the device freely change this voltage without interrupting the charge process. This change makes it possible for devices to bypass their own but in charging electronics and just directly forward the voltage coming from the charger to the device, improving efficiency and significantly decreasing how much the device hears up during charging
Sadly PPS is not found on many devices or chargers yet, and makes the already complicated USB C charging situation even more complicated for consumers
Well, the source checks the cable using the CC line which doesn’t go through the cable (VCONN). So source only knows the cable directly plugged in. To make the extension cable visible, the sink would be required to check the cable plugged in using VCONN and then the tell max ampere to the source over the other CC that goes through the cable.
2 Problems:
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Sink devices normally don’t read or can’t read VCONN as far as I know
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No way of detecting if a third cable (extension in the middle) is present and what specs it has
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Heh heh heh. Wait till you dive into the world of “That $15 cable costs 12c to make.”
I’m right now in China and those cables cost $0.50 shipped to your address, so not surprised
Getting $30 cables for $3 with my employee discount was almost the only good thing about working for Best Buy in the early 2000s.
How did we possibly survive with entirely dumb power chords?
Safety regulations are written in blood. Electrical fires were indeed a problem. It’s why there are rules on how many outlets need to be in a room, how spaced out they need to be (to curtail extension cord usage even when the builders are trying to be cheap and stingy with outlets). It’s the reason why we have breakers and GCFIs and RCBs and AFCIs. It’s the reason why we have electrical certification bodies like UL which won’t certify your cable or appliance if the cords are too thin.
There’s a lot of smart stuff we do behind the scenes to make dumb cords safe because even smart people make dumb mistakes.
“Dumb” power cords have thicker gauge wire than USB-C cables and much larger contacts.
This is not about contacts but cableburning tho.
Hence the thicker gauge wire.
Well I’m glad I know that now.
Interesting, I’d never trust any USB cable to push anywhere near 100 watts anyway haha good god, the most I ever do is maybe 20w at 5v.
I’ll keep that in mind when buying cables in the future though this is very useful info!
As a point of reference, Lenovo Thinkpad’s have something of a cult following for their reliability and versatility.
My T490s has a USB-C power supply which provides 45w (20v at 2.25a).
The thing is, when docked it’s not only pulling power through that cable, but also network, USB devices, and providing video for 2x monitors in 1920x1080. It’s kind of astonishing to me how much can be crammed in to one little connector. That said, it’s frustrating trying to find a usb cable that works reliably, because as you’d imagine not all USB-C cables support the same specs.
If you buy a Steam Deck, or the Lenovo laptop I have for work, the only charging options you have are USB C. Their standard chargers put out at least 60 W, and they aren’t particularly special. In fact, I’m pretty sure 20 W at 5 V won’t be enough to supply these while in use, so you will either be using battery with long charge times in between, using them with battery-assisted power for longer use times until you hit those long charge times, or using the 60 W or more at whatever voltage the chargers provide.
The Steam Deck charger is 45W.
IIRC the one that came with my OLED model is 65W
I’m looking at the one for my OLED deck right now and it’s labelled as 45W (20V 2.25A).
The ones I’ve seen that go over 45W specifically for the Steam Deck are mini docks with HDMI out and more
My laptop can do 240W over USB-C, I’m just waiting for a charger that can do it with a modular cable
Pretty much this, thanks for the summary
Going to take a wild guess and say the same reason you shouldn’t chain extension cords. USB can carry over 200w these days.
the same reason you shouldn’t chain extension cords.
what if I don’t know that either
It all depends on current draw vs wire size over distance.
Chaining regular extension cords isn’t a problem by itself, connecting too many things in parallel and exceeding the rated max is a problem (and chaining extension cords “just” increase the risk that ordinary people will decide to connect more than they should, especially because the lowest rated cable in the chain sets the total limit)
The issue of chaining extension cords is that you can physically plug a 10 amp extension cord into a 30 amp cord. If you don’t know what amps the device will pull, the 10 amp cord can overheat.
It’s an almost identical problem to USB c.
Why in the everloving would your electrical code allow sales of extension cords that can’t withstand the whole of the plug/socket rating. If it’s an adapter from a higher amperage plug to lower amperage socket you need a fuse.
The short answer is rating changed. We got more and more devices that required higher amperage ratings. So we went from 110 (which was what most homes were rated for in the 50’s) to 120. But if you happened to have an old extension cord lying around in your basement from before the change etc you absolutely could overload it.
The real problem though is that some devices you might use an extension cord for (lets say a welder because I know from experience those require more power than a standard 20’ extension cord puts out), require a certain gauge of wire to carry that power. If that wire is too small or the power source is insufficient, it’s likely no electricity will flow (without flaws in the circuit).
There are various kinds of extension cords made for various uses. Longer = more money, fused = more money, larger wire = more money. More insulation/weather proof plugs = more money.
You probably don’t need a big beefy extension cord for the lamp in the hallway. But you might need it for your weedwacker.
But if, say you hooked up an outlet dedicated for something like a washer/dryer. And you used the correct extension cord to connect to that outlet. Now let’s say you attach an older extension cord or power strip to that extension cord. One that doesn’t have an internal breaker to trip (there’s definitely a fair number that didn’t, back in the day). It would be an astronomically bad idea to attach your welder (or any high draw device) to that circuit. You absolutely can and will let the smoke out of your wires and where there is smoke there is fire.
110/120 is the voltage. That’s irrelevant to the amperage, which is somewhat standardized as 15a on normal outlets and 20a on kitchen or garage outlets.
Extension cords do not have fuses/circuit breakers. That’s found in some power strips but it’s neither required nor necessary with proper use.
And I can literally only reach my car with a welder if I use an extension cord…
The risk of daisy-chaining power strips is it become very easy to overload it, so yes, a circuit breaker would be nice as fire protection. 17 phone chargers would be fine but heating appliances will overload it fast. With no internal breaker, it’s easy to cause a fire with really cheap strips but, if life was ideal, they’d all be made to handle 20a loads like the receptacle in the wall.
The risk of daisy-chaining extension cords is the extra resistance incurred at each connection. There’s a varying amount form the imperfect contacts and a varying amount from pulling the cords apart over the time of device use. If you keep burning plugs with your yard care equipment, it’s probably not normal. It’s usually from partially unplugged cords trying to carry 10-20a across half the planned plug contact. You can readily buy 10-16 awg cords in 110v markets. It’s up to you to determine the appropriate gauge. In an ideal world, they’d all be 10awg. But we don’t have that, we have a world where you can actively choose to save money and increase risk.
Some extension cords absolutely do have circuit breakers, I know this because we use them at work for some of our heavy duty equipment. I also know for a fact that fused link extension cords were their predecessor and you can buy both on Amazon still so I know they exist.
Further I was not saying don’t use an extension cord with a welder. I was saying the correct gauged wire for that extension cord may be necessary to carry the load.
The point of bringing up 110 vs 120 volts was to point out that more voltage = more push. More push through a smaller circuit than is recommended means more heat. I was also pretty exhausted when I responded so my explanation barely makes sense even to me, but I do see where I was going with that. Have you ever seen one of those old brown extension cords with three outlets? They’re usually 2 prong (don’t have a third prong for ground). They also don’t have any of the fail-safes that new extension cords do have.
While I was not specifically talking about daisy-chaining power strips, I wanted to make it clear that even using multiple extension cords in a daisy-chain manner adds significant resistance to the circuit and with enough push and a big enough amperage appliance it absolutely is a fire hazard.
I’m not sure where you got that I said you should use an extension cord with a welder. I was saying you don’t need an extension cord worthy of powering a welder safely in order to power a lamp. But a smaller lower rated extension cord that works for a small indoor appliance is not up to the task and would be dangerous to use with a welder without the proper protections.
The funny thing is the breaker only costs $0.01 to include, but could prevent a house fire. Crazy we don’t demand it in all of our cords
That’s just rephrasing what I said. You can plug in too much for a single extension cord even if there’s no chaining. A chain “just” increase the risk.
Yes but I was emphasizing the parallels to the USB c problem.
In USBC if you use a 200 watt cable that has 200 watts going through it and then extend it with a 15 watt USB c cable, the 15 watt cable will over heat.
If you plug a 30 amp load into a 30 amp cable and then extend it with a 15 amp extension cord, you will get overheating on the 15 amp extension.
This is what AI says about this video:
The video is about the dangers of using USB-C extension cords. The narrator explains that USB-C extension cords are not officially certified by the USB Implementers Forum, which means that they are not guaranteed to be safe or reliable. He also explains that USB-C extension cords can be dangerous because they can overload the power supply of the device that they are connected to. This can cause the device to overheat and even catch fire. The narrator recommends that people avoid using USB-C extension cords altogether. Here are some of the specific dangers of using USB-C extension cords:
- They can overload the power supply of the device that they are connected to.
- They can cause the device to overheat and even catch fire.
- They can degrade the performance of the device.
- They can be unreliable.
The narrator also explains that some USB-C extension cords have a label that says “USB 2.0 low speed devices can only work with one side of the ultra high rate extension cables interface.” This means that the USB 2.0 connection is only available on one side of the cable. This can be a problem if you need to connect a USB 2.0 device to the cable.
The narrator recommends that people avoid using USB-C extension cords altogether. If you must use one, he recommends that you use a high-quality cable from a reputable manufacturer. You should also make sure that the cable is rated for the power requirements of the device that you are connecting to it. Overall, this video is a helpful resource for anyone who is considering using a USB-C extension cord. It provides important information about the dangers of using these cables and how to avoid them.
As always AI doesn’t quite get it. One of the main points is that it could catch on fire and burn down your house. Plus you’ll run into other problems as well. You’re not supposed to buy extensions for USB. Buy a longer cable instead.
Jokes on you buddy. Most people can’t afford houses these days.
But yeah, if you don’t know what exactly what you’re doing, err on the side of caution
The risk isn’t usually the device you connect a bad cable to (they have internal limiters), it’s the cable itself. You can easily overload a cable if the extension cord can’t signal the lower limit if it’s own rating and the other cable’s rating.
The USB 2 part is also misleading.
The AI got most of it vaguely right, but unsurprisingly a lot seems to go above its head. Kinda like reading a shitty tech journalist writing about something they don’t understand at all.
You’re a bold one. Lemmy hates videos and AI both.
Considering this AI answer is kind of wrong, can you blame us?
I asked the AI if it was wrong or you were wrong. It said you were wrong.
Who am I to believe?
It’s not that Lemmy hates videos and AI. Lemmy (understandably) hates YouTube* videos and AI.
Fediverse has our own video platforms, such as Peertube, and more recently, loops.video. Linking to YouTube defies a golden purpose that motivated us as the fediverse: privacy, no tracking, no ads, no enshittification.
I’m sick of stuff that should be ~2 paragraphs of text being a video. I do not want to watch a person or hear a narrator, I interpret written information much more effectively, and being text I can retain significant portions of the document as necessary.
You know, you don’t have to watch it. You can find the information elsewhere in text format. But I guess we all need to conform to your preferences.
It’s nice that you’re so ready to delegate to my natural authority, but unnecessary.
Well I prefer the video. So make sure you watch it. Give a like as well.
Technically extension cables were not part of the original USB spec, either, but that did not prevent oodles of them from appearing pretty much instantly.
There never was supposed to be any such thing as a male USB-A to female USB-A cable, and yet that didn’t prevent pretty much every little MP3 player from 2001 to about 2005 from coming with one anyway.
Seems negligent to not include extension cables in the spec. Lots of hubs have too short of cables, or one needs to expose a plug somewhere other than where the PC is.
True, although shady Amazon sellers will probably still sell you a fire hazard cord that isn’t to spec.
You just get a longer USB-C cable.
A lot of hubs have non detachable cables.
yeah, dont buy those
Those are 90% of the ones available, 95% of the small factor ones and 99% of the affordable ones. One of the main reasons for them to be non detachable is because most users would pick any random USB cable and complain it doesn’t push 4K while charging the laptop.
Source: I’ve made the percentages up, but it’s very close to that range.
Actually if somebody knows one that’s good, small, affordable and detachable I’ll be happy to know.
Yeah, I won’t buy another one again, but now that I have one, I don’t want to e-waste it just because the cable is too short.
Electric fire danger is really changing my opinion on this though.
This risk is a bit exaggerated. If you’re charging a phone or even a non gaming laptop, most extensions are still fine. Of you try to push 240W over a cheap Amazon basics cable… Yeah no.
I never wondered about this, but it makes sense now. Off topic but man, the dry mouth noises he makes inbetween sentences are driving me crazy…
Yeah after looking into it it totally makes sense to me.
Off topic but you user name is the bestos.
I have a 240W extension from AliExpress, used with a 120W power for my laptop, it never gets hot even when using 100+W
Because you made sure the cable is rated for more than what you’re using it for. The problem is when somebody doesn’t do that. A 60W cable hooked up to a 120W power supply, for example.
My highest charger is 65W, that’s enough.
Removed by mod
did you mean :
Post the TLDR or FO
?
TLDR || FO ?
PtTLDRoFO,Y❤️🤟🙏🎉🍺💪🥂
don’t wanna watch anything rn but boosted for later
USB-C somehow managed to be the worst “standard.” Hopefully the next big USB port doesn’t allow for so much variance. I don’t see why a specific wattage and data transfer rate isn’t included in the specification. I can scarcely believe they managed to standardize it so well that I can plug the wrong cord into a port and break something.
