Please upvote this comment if you are a liberal and this headline gave you pause and maybe a nagging “are we the baddies?” moment of reflection
And then I read the article and remembered: reality is more complicated then good-bad.
A sociopath told you that you aren’t capable of having moral judgements about people dying and that you needed to listen to vetted experts instead. It’s not complicated actually. I contend that pointless death is in fact a bad thing
Good to know if someone invaded your country that you would be a capitulator and collaborator in the name of an unjust peace.
I do too. That’s why I hope Ukraine is able to defend themselves against Russia bombing hospitals and torturing children. Once they’ve pushed Russia all the way back to their border, I hope that the world gives Ukraine so many weapons that Russia will never think about attacking them again.
And who or what desides if a death is pointless?
If you think there’s glory in these deaths then stop cheering from the backfield and take the place of someone gang pressed off the street.
Even if I would do that I suppose you wouldn’t be happier with the situation. And guess what, neither would I.
But that’s what you’re saying, right? These deaths are valuable just for the sake of fighting in some abstract sense? Because the bad guy is bad?
No, as I said in my first answer, there are no generally right or wrong answers. There are people dying because of some vanity project of the rich and powerful. I also hold the opinion, that those shall be prevented at all costs. But if my information on the conflict is correct and this war started as a civil war on the topic of secession, then the question get’s hard to answer almost instantly, and also highly individual.
Not upvoting as a diehard commie, just to respect the vote. Would love to see an actual poll of libs on this
Fears of peace talks
Peace bad, war good!
Did I get that right?
Defending your home is good.
And that’s why you supported the breakaway republics?
Have you ever come by the term: wicked problem? Secession movements are a prime example of a wicked problem.
They are, but while wicked problems (what Bostonians call “math”) are very difficult to resolve to the satisfaction of everyone, some approaches are far worse than others.
Ukraine’s approach – failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements while running away from your largest neighbor and in to the arms of the U.S. empire, then skipping offramps in the lead up to the war and in its first months – was a particularly bad one.
can you hint me to some further reading?
On what, in particular?
failing to control the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in their midst, then allowing those paramilitaries to violate the Minsk agreements
This. The later parts I have read about.
That’s why you love landlords
The best way to defend your home is to stop the bombs from falling on it. Unless you’re not talking about people’s homes, families, and friends, but rather talking about some arbitrary line in the sand that people should be sent to die for.
Then why oh why aren’t you applying your reasoning to Russia? They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
If it’s all just pointless bloodshed over lines on a map, why isn’t Russia staying home? All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back.
We’re talking about the fastest ways to stop bloodshed, not Russia. Do you think that ending the war is bad?
Well fastest way is for Russia to say “We’re done, here’s your territory back.”
Would be equally fast if ukraine said “We’re done, keep the territory”
Edit: objectively true statement downvoted for being inconvenient to the readerNo, it wouldn’t. That would lead to more and worse violence as Russia continues it genocide.
Russia being the aggressor State that didn’t respect its prior engagements (Budapest memorandum), letting them keep the territory they unlawfully took from Ukraine is a ridiculous suggestion, would open the door to the same thing happening again at a later date and would require way more negotiations than just respecting the borders as agreed upon in the 90s.
They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
Yeah, that’s definitely what’s going on here
They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I’ll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it’s barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
I wonder what part of this is supposed to justify Russia’s indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations
Lolyou think this is “indiscriminate”? Fuck, you should’ve zeen Fallujah or Vietnam or Korea. Ukraine has so much infrastructure and housing left in perfectly usable conditions. One of my major issues at the beginning was that I expected Russia to be much more violent and have been very surprised at how little of the violence has been on non-combatants
Russia has definitely not engaged in total war.
From what you wrote, do you have a major issue with, in your view, how little violence Russia has inflicted on civilians? Glad that you’re disappointed.
My point stands. All that blabber does not justify the acts of Russia.
I wonder that too
Russia can cry about their red line all they want, but it wasn’t in the treaty. The Revolutions of 1989 made it clear Eastern Europeans weren’t interested in Russian control, the Balkans were unstable, and the Chechen & Georgian wars stoked fear in the former Soviet states. All NATO had to do was open their doors, and again, nothing in the treaty forbade it.
1989 Revolutions? Wholesale dismemberment of the USSR more like. And treaty didn’t say it. The Russians sure as fuck did.
nothing in the treaty forbade it.
“I’m not legally prohibited from doing this” is rarely a good argument
I’m not sure there are any good arguments in geopolitics.
Are you suggesting that Russian aggression is justified because they demanded something of a sovereign nation which was refused?
All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back
Not that Russia isn’t taking casualties, but why do Ukraine supporters act like they’re not the ones feeding their people into the meat grinder? Russia is dug in. You’re sending children and old men into a turkey shoot.
I mean sure but what’s the point in peace talks if all it would do is just give Russia more time to prep to try the same shit they’ve been doing for decades now.
Not being dead is even better.
So you just surrender and don’t have a home anymore/die anyways?
You just have to read about the Great Soviet Famine to know how Russia regards the Ukrainian people. Well, all the people who are not the Tzar really. Putin has already started the latest genocide via war and stealing children.
The famine that affected the whole USSR, of which Ukraine was a part? What does that have to do with Russia, let along the “Tzar”?
“die anyways” ? how so ?
I’m sorry I don’t have the time or willpower to explain history to you.
The brigade of sealions is insufferable and interacting with them won’t help.
What a pretentious thing to say.
Lol ok
Terminal levels of cringe
and 
Very intelligent.
Why are you posting hex emojis outside of hexbear? You know that’s against hexbear rules.
I would be so ashamed of actually posting this
Just don’t answer, it looks less ridiculous
How would Ukrainians lose their homes/die if a successful peace deal was brokered?
And then you get raped and killed. Like glorious Russia has always done throughout your history.
Ok Adolf
Everyone is Adolf: A Socially Awkward Morons Guide to Winning Debates.
No need to use an ableist slur to make your point. It adds nothing and makes it easy to dismiss.
Take it out and your otherwise correct.
More ableism from liberals?
Do you think Russia went to Ukraine and they sat down in a nice comfy living room with a fireplace and discussed one country handing everything they have over to the other?
That is somehow still more likely than Russia completely annexing Ukraine with less than half the East in their control
No, I’m aware of the fact that there’s an actual war going on.
Literal fascist
Putin is indeed.
I’m sure you weren’t one of the people celebrating whenever someone would post a video of that happening to a Russian on Reddit.
Reddit reddit reddit. That’s all you children talk about. Why don’t you just give in and make an account? It’s all you talk about anyway.
You didnt deny it, which wouldve been easy. Something you dont wanna talk about?
Don’t feed the hexbears.
What do you mean by “don’t have a home?”
Why do you think peace talks equal surrender? How do you think literally all other wars came to an end?
Because context is a thing. Or do you think Russia would currently accept any peace deal that includes leaving Ukraine? Of course there will have to be a peace deal at the end, but currently there are no peace deals that would be acceptable to either party.
When there is talk about “peace deals”, such deals are implied to somewhat reflect the status quo border wise, which at the moment would mean that Ukraine surrenders. It’s Russia currently occupying Ukraine and trying to legitimise it, not the other way around. No shit a peace deal would be favourable to them.
What do you honestly think is going to happen to Ukraine if theres a ceasefire? Without using cartoon logic
It would have to be a really shitty surrender treaty to have the clause “Ukraine will surrender all land to Russia and will also die anyways.” Like you realize this is useless and dumb hyperbole right?
This is the point that’s always lost on libs. They’re full on blood and soil over soil and blood that isn’t theirs. They can’t imagine negotiationg peace so then people can stop dying.
Not for russians.
It would probably be a good thing if there can be an end to conscripts killing conscripts.
It really depends. If Russia gets to keep territory it conquered, keep children it kidnapped, not pay for the destruction and murder it wrought, see sanctions lifted and proceed to immediately re-arm and continue on its path of indoctrinating children into becoming fascist warriors for the next round, I wouldn’t call that peace.
Sure, but that’s an expectation of demilitarization by nuclear powers, not a cessation of warfare.
I don’t believe this for one second. I haven’t heard anything from the Ukraine administration that would suggest in any way that they are interested in peace talks. In fact, their recent choice of putting a Crimean Tatar as the Minister of Defence suggests that they are serious about taking Crimea back from Russia. I hear nothing but absolute resolve by both the Weat and Ukraine to keep fighting until a Ukraine victory.
I hear nothing but absolute resolve by both the Weat and Ukraine to keep fighting until
a Ukraine victory.Until the last Ukrainian. That’s what I’ve heard too.
I know you people don’t consider Ukrainians actual humans with agency but they fight because they are forced to do so by Russians. And if they stopped fighting they would be eradicated by Russians. Whether the West wants them to resist Russia or not has no weight in that.
I’ve seen videos and articles that suggest that many Ukrainians fight because they are forced to do so by other Ukrainians. And what do you mean eradicated? Do you know of some secret extermination camp nobody else knows about?
Show proof of your bald-faced lie propagandist
It’s openly reported in western media ignoramus https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/02/26/ukraine-finds-stepping-up-mobilisation-is-not-so-easy
So liberal western media is trustworthy to you now?
From your link:
Not all who get draft notices are actually inducted; sometimes the notices are simply a way to get every potential recruit on the books. Even for those who get one, there are ways of getting around it. There are legal exemptions for illness and disability—either of the draftee or of a dependant. Single parents and fathers with three or more children are off the hook as well. Students can defer service. Certain professions also receive what is known locally as bron, or protection from call-up.
The government has extended this to key workers in the energy, transport and agriculture sectors. Many IT staff have six-month exemptions. Alex, an IT professional who handles his company’s relations with the government, says the state understands how vital his sector has become to the war effort. “It’s one of the only areas of the economy still generating hard currency. Many of us are also working pro bono on military projects in AI, surveillance, counter-espionage and other classified technologies.”
From another economist article:
Ironically, though, Ukraine’s army is built on conscription as well. For years Ukrainian law has demanded 12 to 18 months of military service from Ukrainian men, even if many of them manage to postpone it through studies or parenthood (registering with a fake address is a popular trick to duck it entirely). The practice of conscription itself, like so much else about Ukraine, is a relic that it has tried to shed: when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, all its men had to complete at least three years of military service. Four of Ukraine’s last five elected presidents promised to abolish it. One succeeded in 2013, but it was reinstated the following year, after Russia began grabbing chunks of Ukrainian territory. Last month, just before the war started, Mr Zelensky proposed an end to conscription by early 2024.
Almost like it’s far more nuanced than “being forced to fight”. But you and your tanky buds will never admit that none of this would have to happen if Russia didn’t invade Ukraine in an unprovoked war of aggression
As to your buddy’s genocide denial, I’ll just leave this here
I love how you just keep peddling debunked nonsense here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8kt9RUpYqk
And no, it’s not more nuanced than being forced to fight, the regime in Ukraine is literally kidnapping people off the street and sending them to die on the front lines. Meanwhile, human garbage such as yourself keeps cheering that on. You are an utter scumbag.
They’re fighting because the last time they didn’t fight russia they had the holodomor.
They haven’t forgotten.
Yeah have you heard about the weapon supply talks with North Korea?
Kim jong is completely resolute to fight the west, to the last Russian 😢
I heard that all the time too. From Russian propaganda mainly. Is someone else independently claiming such theories as well?
These are justifications to give the people of USA as reasons to keep supporting them. Especially the conservatist side needs convincing right now, because their tribe is at odds with this particular war for some reason.
I feel you are falsely juxtaposing these different things as similar. USA is not throwing ukrainians against Russia, they are supporting a people who are fighting for the survival of their nation.
US conservatives are relatively supportive of the Kremlin because key party leaders have ties to Putin.
deleted by creator
Great, another Hexbear brigading thread. Hexbear needs to be defederated, it’s a bunch of fake communists spreading authoritarian propaganda.
cry ab it, oh wait you already are
Agreed. Hexbear and lemmygrad idiots are pretending to be all for peace and yet support the war mongers in russia.
These instances are a magnet for dishonesty and propaganda. Plus they have a 4chan attitude towards discussions, i.e. they keep shifting goalposts if you press them and throw absurd statements at you while doing so. There is nothing redeeming of those places.
The Hill is propaganda? Do you even hear yourself?
I didn’t say that and I’m pretty sure you know that’s not what I meant.
There’s a lot of silly and disingeneous people on this app, I have to take their written word at face value. You seem to think ad hominem attacks are worth detracting from the article published in The Hill, a news source that would normally fit your ideology. So even when your own trusted media is reporting that Ukraine’s a geopolitical and moral mess, instead you’re claiming it’s a group of people spreading propaganda. I think you don’t care about Ukranians you just want to be right.
They didn’t even read the article either clearly lol
One Baltic official, requesting anonymity because of the sensitivity of the topic, told The Hill that Baltic states are concerned that pushing Ukraine into negotiations will have dangerous ripple effects throughout the region.
This is the “fears of peace talks”
Fears of peace talks
What kind of bullshit Orwellian headline is this? Peace is GOOD, stopping the bloodshed is GOOD. We WANT less people to die.
The only reason I opened the article, “whatchu mean fear of peace talks?!”
Like I get it, Ukraine shouldn’t capitulate. But ending the bloodshed is a good thing, surely.
To what end though? Freeze the border where it is now and give Russia another few years to build up force for round 3?
I suppose that’s up to Ukraine, right? They’re the ones fighting so it makes sense for them to decide what terms they’d be willing to accept.
So, you didn’t read the article? The fear is not about peace talks, it’s about support from the US forcing them while Ukraine is making progress.
But I thought Ukraine was a free and sovereign nation making its own decisions. You NAFO bots really need to get your story straight.
The issue is that we’ve already tried the whole peace thing before. Remember the Budapest Memorandum? The Minsk Protocol & Minsk II? The Partition & Friendship Treaties?
I feel like the heart of the issue is that Russia doesn’t want peace. If it did, we would not be here in the first place.
You mean the Minsk agreements Ukraine refused to implement for 8 years, and the west has now admitted were designed to buy time to arm Ukraine for the proxy war. Not really helping your case there bud.
…Ukraine refused to implement for 8 years, and the west has now admitted were designed to buy time to arm Ukraine for the proxy war
[citation needed]
can’t even be bothered to google? https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html
can’t even be bothered to google?
No, I’m invoking Hitchen’s Razor.
While I will concede the Minsk Agreement, there’s still the issue of the Partition Treaty, the Treaty of Friendship, and the Budapest Memorandum. All of which were meant to encode Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.
Claiming there is no evidence for something that’s well documented is just flaunting your own ignorance. All of the treaties you mentioned were respected by Russia until US overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine in a violent coup. A fact that’s, once again, has been extensively documented in western media. It takes stunning amounts of intellectual dishonesty to ignore this and peddle your narrative.
The hill is a pretty conservative outlet but this is a disturbing headline for sure. The only way to end the war is with peace talks, there is no other option. The better Ukraine does on the ground the better they will do in the negotiations.
Always pay attention to the commenter‘s instance. All three above are hexbear users, so expect a heavy pro russian stance.
The fear is that there is pressure for peace talk conditions to be less than fair to Ukraine, that this would be little more than appeasement of Russia, like what happened with Czechoslovakia in the 1930s
Ukraine was in a far better position when US and UK sabotaged peace talks last March, and Ukrainian position continues to deteriorate. So what exactly do you think delaying negotiations more is going to accomplish?
Somebody think of the Lockheed shareholders!
Poor bastards need more stock buy backs
A real mask off moment there.
Inb4 “acksually killing thousands over lines in the sand is good” rhetoric
Too late, that shit is all over this post already
Peace? Oh yeah, there can be peace wHEn rUZziA fULLy WiTHDRaWAlS ALl of THEIR oRcS back to moSCOW Maybe don’t invade another sovereign country, how about that POOTLER?!
- the average impotent reddit r/worldnews comment for the past year
Russia has done horrible things to the Ukrainian people for a good century now. I hope the Ukraine doesn’t get pressured into giving its land and people over to Putin. Any deal needs to give Ukraine all its territory back, and for Russia to keep its military off their border.
What has Ukraine allowed to have happen to it’s ethnic Russian population comprising a significant portion of the east of Ukraine done during it’s time? You speak like a US state department underling. Whose office are you in exactly?
What has
UkraineCzechoslovakia allowed to have happen [sic] to it’s [sic] ethnicRussianGerman population comprising a decent portion of theeast of Ukraine[sic] West of Czechoslovakia done during it’s [sic] time?The settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem, which has now been achieved is, in my view, only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace.
- Neville Chamberlain, British Prime Minister, September 30th, 1938.
More context:
The Munich Agreement[a] was an agreement concluded at Munich on 30 September 1938, by Nazi Germany, the United Kingdom, the French Republic, and Fascist Italy. The agreement provided for the German annexation of part of Czechoslovakia called the Sudetenland, where more than three million people, mainly ethnic Germans, lived.
I’m pretty left leaning, and I’m against any fascist state trying to turn its neighbors into vassal states for its interest. And yes, that means being against a lot of what the US does as well.
Are you making fun of someone for parroting US talking points, while yourself parroting Kremlin talking points?
Anything except being for using Ukraine to fight a US-Russia proxy war is a Kremlin talking point to state dept plants like yourself.
So everyone who doesn’t agree with your (completely Russian aligned btw) views works for the US state dept? Are you in high school or something?
Coal mine. It’s high school for Russians.
Are you even aware of who invaded Ukraine and started the war?
NatO DiD iT
That’s not an excuse to have a proxy war neocon.
Well, tell your buddy Putin to pack it up and go home. You do want the war to end, right?
If it’s a proxy war, that means that Russia attacked Ukraine to get back at the US, not the other way around. This means it’s on Russia to stop the war, by giving back an innocent country’s land that they stole.
Try studying history and us involvement in the region. Instead gas lighting people like they don’t know why Russia invaded part of the country. What has the US and NATO done prior to 2014 to create stability and peace in the region. Jack shit, the opposite, and there were plenty of opportunities. Ukraine isn’t going to get its land back period.
What about what about what about…
The fake progressive right wing warmongers of lemmy sitting in their comfortable spaces from across the globe are going to be upset at the prospect of peace.
I feel attacked.
I wish all the westies cheering this war on would sign up for the foreign legion and go fight the orcs themselves.
No one is cheering for the war, no matter how many times you say it.
People may cheer for Ukrainian independence, or for their victories, but no one wants the war to continue. The war can end today, if only Russia decides to give back all the land they took by force, including Crimea.
You’re building a strawman.
Ukraine doesn’t have any independence, no matter how many times you say it. Ukraine has a puppet regime that’s throwing the people of Ukraine into a meat grinder so that US can fight a proxy war with Russia. Meanwhile the only straw man here is the whole RuSsIA CaN JuSt GivE AlL ThE LaND BacK as if that’s a realistic scenario. Russia is winning this war, and the west is losing. There is no situation where Russia just packs up and goes home now. The only question is how many people are going to die before this war ends and whether there is an Ukraine left at the end of it.
Anybody who supports continuation of this war is absolutely cheering for continued death of people of Ukraine and the destruction of their country.
Oh, Russia is winning this war? Is that why it didn’t end in their estimated 3 days? Is that why Prigozhin marched on the Kremlin? Is that why they’re asking North Korea for weapons now?
So much winning.
Imagine looking at what’s happening with Ukraine’s offensive and still not being able to understand that Russia is winning the war.
They’re a bunch of cold war boomers they don’t give a fuck about Ukrainians and they’re not progressive in the slightest.
“Mother Russia is strong”
Oh god, you are funny.
Mother Russia is near death at this point. The world has seen that the Russian army can’t even invade small parts of a country that is a fraction if its own size. Corruption in your army os so rampant that your vehicles have been falling apart by themselves.
Mother Russia is the laughing stock of the world, at this point and due to the genocide being perpetrated, it’s also hated and a black sheep for decades to come.
Russia won’t be able to get high tech equipment anymore dor anything.
Your mothers lost their sons because all the smart and rich ones fled the country. Phuket has a nice “alternative invasion” of young Russian men that fled your country and its a single example. Young men that now are removed from your economy and that is on too of the thousands of dead of your shitty laughingly called “smo”
Rich countries no longer want to trade with Russia so your mother is limited to the few countries left that will squeeze her balls because they know they can.
Be careful mother Russia, china has seen how disgustingly weak you are and might help a few other areas in Russia to revolt and become
independentChinese pawns.Mother Russia is fucked, and if you don’t know that then you’re even more pathetic than I thought.
“SMO” really shows where you get your info from. You support a dictator / maffia boss, you support genocide, and you are on the losing side.
Your shit army couldn’t even invade a country properly because of all the corruption going on and now you’re being kicked out.
Russia is the laughing stock and black sheep of the world and it will take decades to rid itself of that mark. Your smart and strong men flew the country because fuck that, they’re not dying for Putin’s bullshit. The only few counties left willing to trade with you are squeezing your balls because they know they can. Russia hasn’t been this week since it’s founding, and you better start worrying about olgout other borders and your internal affairs. Russia is what it is because it suppressed millions. Now that it’s falling appart, those suppressed will stand up, and china, I’m sure, would love to annex a piece of Russia.
You’re fucked.
It’s not “peace” if Russia gains territory. Then it’s capitulation.
Fears of peace talks
Seems like mask off moment. Now i will read the comments if i suspect the resident liberal warmongers are still on their lines.
EDIT: The condensed copium cloud over liberal posts is even denser than imagined, with multiple layers.
my thought as well.
How can anyone has fears of peace talks. jfc
I’m guessing they fear that like in 2014, they will have to concede land to Russia, which is what they did NOT want to do. It’s not the fear talks they fear, it’s the result.
Wow, that is some bad title. I would say concerns are justified if Russia can just keep annexing chunks from other countries. It started with Georgia and Ukraine and we can see the same events happening in Moldova currently.
Also if Russia were to share a proper border with Poland then that’s pretty much guaranteed WW3, Poland hates Russia with a passion.
…I’m sure Ukraine would gladly put down their arms and watch Russia fight eastern European countries instead, if they really want to make this their fight instead of Ukraine’s.
