Remember kids, Tankies wants to undermine democracy - same as facists.
I’m not against the hostility being shown towards tankies here… but it should be remembered that there are a lot of well-meaning and well-intentioned people who get caught up in the technocratic ideology tankies buy into. Let’s face it… if you google anything about leftism you are more likely to end up reading about Marx and Engels than Bakunin or Goldman - and right-wing propaganda is as perfectly fine with conflating everything “leftist” with the technocratic (ie authoritarian) left as tankies themselves are.
If we are leaving some doors open for fascists and capitalists who turn against their programming, we should remember to do the same for tankies.
Just like fascists, tankies could theoretically hang out here without getting the boot. It’s just that genocide denying authoritarians cannot be tolerated in a tolerant, democratic society. The reason tankies and fascists get the boot is because they can’t resist trying to bully and intimidate those that find their views abhorrent. They simply can’t resist being terrible.
They’re cultists with views that can’t stand up to scrutiny, so they need use other tactics to spread their shit and gain power. They use the real downsides and weaknesses of democracy to argue we need an even worse system. Then they argue you actually hold the worst views of their enemies, even though they usually support exactly the same things that make those enemies bad. Tankies claim you’re a free-market liberal for opposing them, when the countries they support are state capitalists. Fascists claim you’re against freedom of speech, while they are always trying to ban ideas they hate. Some of them are misguided and believe their own lies, but others are just awful people.
Tankies traditionally are associated with communists, but today’s tankies (even those that call themselves communists) are really after authoritarianism than communism, and given the history of the name (that they supported using tracks on civilians). I don’t think they’re is much difference between current communists and current fascists, both groups seem to support authoritarianism and feels like term “tankies” fits both of them well.
I learned about a week ago why they are the way they are. See the soviet union was the closest in their mind the world has ever come to communism, so even though it’s fallen into fascist oligarchy, they still hold hope that the anticommunist putin is going to rise up and reestablish global communism once more. The only problem with that is that… well Russia doesn’t want communism. This is their playbook Yeah, that doesn’t look socialist, that looks like “we tried communism it didn’t work so lets do fascism this time” so they end up throwing their support towards red flavored fascism since it’s the best chance (in their minds) at getting global communism. When the alternative is an american nazi world order, or tiny countries with no power, you don’t really have much choice.
But here’s something I want every single one of you to realize having read all of that: Even the most fascist redfash still would have killed the nazis. The same cannot be said for the average (in-power) liberal today. Anticommunism is always pro-fascism. Never let your critiques of the left turn into support for the right.
EDIT: Case in point, the person i’m responding to is never going to see this post because they’re on a nazi bar instance that banned me.
Even the most fascist redfash still would have killed the nazis.
They’d kill who they define as nazis. I find that tankies’ (especially Hexbear) definition of nazism doesn’t entirely correspond to mine or that of most other people. So this is not something to be super optimistic about.
It is a bare minimum that the current world order can’t even pass. They can’t even go a week without funding a mass ethnic genocide.
I really have no idea what people are trying to say or getting at in a lot of these comments, it feels like one of those art experiments where words don’t have meaning but are used to express emotion
It doesn’t help that I think I ended up replying to the wrong comment :s
Ah yeah that makes a lot of sense 🗜️
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Lol redfash killing nazis isn’t worth praise. Redfash kill each other the first chance they get. They are so paranoid when they come to power they purge anyone and everyone they can.
Lemmy world are nazis?
The users are a mixed bag but the mods/admins absolutely are in the business of running a nazi bar. They’re doing the classic strategy of passively protecting fascists while actively suppressing those calling out the fascists. They also ban people who are open communists.
Meanwhile, .ml keeps banning my accounts for just commenting on c/worldnews these days.
I’m not a troll. You can go look at my contributions. I made some hexbears look like idiots and now they’ve got me on a leash.
I’ve learned the fun way not to bother with hexbear users. They’re only here to antagonize nazis so best not to get in the way of that.
I muted a couple dozen hexbear accounts when the whole instance was out seemingly trying to antagonize the entire fediverse.
Turns out that got the vast majority of annoying trolls from there.
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Yeah I was making a point that even the most “fascist” communist is still a zillion times less fascist than your average liberal. I love that you brought that article because it reinforces my point that anti-communism is always pro-fascism.
Slaps Table Thank You!
Wait but I’m a communist. As in communes first, no state, no hierarchy, collective ownership, and all that jazz. I’m not super well read on the theory. Its really easy to see the difference, we’re not splitting hairs here.
That is why I use anarchist instead. It means all of that while also making it clear that authoritarianism is not ok.
That’s called collective anarchism. Anarchism is what the name implies… and most lemmy users wouldn’t last especially long lmao
More specifically, yes. It is collective anarchism, but in this context I think it is obvious enough that I don’t need to clarify it further.
Also I think that any type of anarchism allows for collective anarchism, and by extension could be used to mean collective anarchism.
I mean if your definition of collectivism is men with guns taking what they want then yeah that sounds likely. I’m also a collective anarchist, but it’s important to note how far we must come as a species before we can actually engage meaningfully in such a philosophy, otherwise it will just regress on progress made in other spheres. Bolstering of education is a good step in this process, but also moral and philosophical teachings.
Collective anarchism, along with all utopias, is unachievable, but a system incorporating its tenets is certainly possible, I just question whether it would devolve into men with guns taking what they want.
I most certainly do not mean men with guns taking whatever they want. That is authoritarian. The revolution is an ongoing process to redefine society as a non-hierarchical. I see it as non-violent: only defending against violence, never inciting it.
Between writing that comment I read through the anarchist FAQ on revolution.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full#text-amuse-label-secj7
And I agree with it wholeheartedly.We as a species are far enough for anarchism to work, people just have to stop believing in authority, and we have to help them.
I also do not think anarchism is a utopia. There is nothing about it that couldn’t work. Non-hierarchical societies have existed, and their dissolution just means people aren’t ready yet.
It’s called campism and it’s dumb teenager stuff.
Yes, when it comes to the axis from authoritarian to anarchist. Things all tend to narrow in to a single point at either end. In regards to authoritarians, it’s all about the hierarchy and holding power for themselves. They don’t give a shit what form of government sits under that. When it comes to anarchists and libertarians, no government other than a largely flat form of socialism is acceptable. Simply because they are focused on freedoms both individual and social. And large monolithic hierarchies tend to get in the way of that.
And when I use the term libertarian I of course mean actual libertarians. Not temporarily embarrassed Republicans, or teenage capitalists. The easiest test to find out whether someone might accidentally be a libertarian or not. Is to find out if they belong to the Libertarian party, or ever plan to vote for their candidates. No one who would ever do that could ever be a libertarian lol
those “libertarians” are just anarcho-capitalists who think the issue isn’t the system itself but they couldn’t get access to the pie soon enough and get a bigger piece than everyone else so they think we should do a reset do this time they can come out on top
it’s enough to look at how Crypto works with it’s deflationary system where first buyers are much stronger than late comers or the MOAS /ape crowd
Absolutely. Though even calling them in Arco capitalist is still to generous and a blight to the term anarchist. (I’ve met a few anarchists that were too idealistic and unreasonable for their own good. But they are generally pretty chill, reasonable people otherwise.) They are no true libertarians. Actual libertarians push not just for freedom from things like government. But also the freedom for everyone in society to be able to do the things they desire. One without the other is not a libertarian.
🤔 There should be a fediverse-wide rule against genocidal rhetoric. Who cares what side it’s from?
In that case i’m fucked, because I called for the genocide of mosquitoes about a month ago.
The fact that y’all think Tankies are a bigger problem than Nazis shows just how out of touch y’all are. Tankies aren’t infiltrating the Democrat party, Tankies just want to LARP as revolutionaries online while never doing any real Praxis. All while White Supremacists and Nazis are actively pushing the great replacement theory and other bigotry with great effect in the Republican Party. Blahaj zone 196 is the worst 196 for this reason. Talk about missing the mark. . .
You’re whistling past the graveyard if you think the online rise of tankie ideology and propaganda isn’t going to manifest itself into reality if they’re ignored and dismissed as just a bunch of revolutionary larpers.
Yeah, we ignored the Tea Party as silly folks in 2008 and 2012, but by 2016 they had rebranded as MAGA and now they run the GOP.
Any delusional, hateful ideology – be it tankies, Nazis, or whatever – will fester if you let it.
And you are extremely out of touch if you think tankies could ever manifest into anything more than a threat than a Unabomberesc bad actor. Tankies arent organized whatsoever in the west, while Nazis are have actual rallies in broad day light, while the GOP is actively championing causes that they support. Tankies want to kill landlords, Nazis want to kill Jews, Black People, Queer folk, and Liberals that wont toe the line. I dont agree with either of them, but i can recognize that the Nazi threat is much more metastasised in America and a much greater threat. If you cant see that you need to get your head out of your ass.
Tankies arent organized whatsoever in the west
They very much are, pretty much any western state has an ML party with practically military discipline. They’re cultists, of course they have strict organisational structures – see “democratic” centralism.
On the other hand they’re also deeply fractional – much more so than the liberal and anti-ideological left which may have more overt disagreements but actually manages to work across those boundaries because they don’t consider each other literal fascists, what keeps tankies together is their capacity to ignore fundamental disagreements within their wider in-group, like, random example, ignoring China’s backwards stance on sexual minorities. Maybe a bit cartoonish but if you fly a red flag, are an authoritarian and know the right combination of selective quotes (always watch out for […] in anything a tankie says) they will believe that you’re on the same side. But precisely that “ignore everything but the shibboleths” kind of approach means that they don’t get shit done: If they tried to they’d have to face their fundamental disagreements.
The other thing that keeps them from doing things in the real world is that they’re too busy wanking off to their own perceived superiority. Lemmygrad is simply an online version of that kind of cult.
Tankies want to kill landlords
No. They want to be landlords. They want all the power capitalists have and centralise it, that is literally what state capitalism means.
but i can recognize that the Nazi threat is much more metastasised in America and a much greater threat.
That’s true, big-picture. But within the left tankies and adjacent styles of thinking, things like purity checking culture, are very much a problem that keeps the American left from being effective, in general and of course as chemotherapy against fascism. You won’t see them participating in Antifa, feed the homeless, or get social housing or public transport built.
they’re too busy wanking off to their own perceived superiority
Unlike all the people commenting on this post!
This is just another stupid online factionalism post. None of what anybody says online (especially on a tiny niche forum) matters one fucking bit.
Antifa, feed the homeless, or get social housing or public transport built
This is what matters. And I guarantee you there are MLs participating in black bloc protests, Food not Bombs, and all sorts of other useful things you can think of, but your tendency doesn’t matter when you’re actually out there helping people. Did you turn to your fellow protestors and ask them what they think about China or what they think about some shit that happened a hundred years ago? Or did you just do what needed to be done in the moment?
factionalism
You sure you aren’t a tankie or why else would you use the word with a negative connotation? When two actual leftists meet there’s going to be three factions, yes, but shit is still going to get done. Factions means plurality, plurality means diversity of tactics, all that is good shit.
And I guarantee you there are MLs participating in black bloc protests
MLs, yes. As in Trots and stuff. But actual tankies? Nope. That would require a capacity to cooperate, they even discourage participation internally (mostly by claiming it’s a waste of time, doesn’t contribute to the revolution, whatnot) as it’s dangerous to them, in the sense that people who have not yet completely bought into the cult might choose praxis over brainwashing: Those things are by and large run by Anarchists, with Anarchist organisation principles, and that shit working flies right into the face of democratic centralism.
…okay. I guess I missed the dude with the clipboard checking everyone’s tendency at the protests but I guess you saw him.
I think posts like this are just emblematic of being too online. And if, like you’re saying, tankies don’t do anything because that would be counterrevolutionary or whatever, then what’s the problem? Keyboard warriors aren’t changing shit.
I find all this weird exclusively online rhetoric around what’s an acceptable type of communist to be exhausting. My metric of whether or not someone is a good communist is if they help their community and help workers. You can have whatever takes you want on the kulaks or the Hungarian revolution as long as you’re standing next to me at the soup kitchen. You know why? Because nobody’s thoughts about the Hungarian revolution or even the war in Ukraine matter one iota. In the west we’re all so far from even seeing a lever of power that it doesn’t matter one whit what any of us think. There’s not about to be a tankie coup d’etat of the American government any sooner than an anarchist one.
All this post and the responses to it are are leftists wrestling in the mud to see who can have the fewest allies when they get crushed by global capital.
And if, like you’re saying, tankies don’t do anything because that would be counterrevolutionary or whatever, then what’s the problem?
I find all this weird exclusively online rhetoric around what’s an acceptable type of communist to be exhausting
Oh it’s not at all exclusively online. Like, I’d prefer not to be put into a gulag, thank you, or have a vanguard start revolutions when conditions aren’t met, ultimately delaying the actual fall of capitalism. This shit has real-world implications, and them being tolerated in online places gives them power to recruit, to propagandise, ultimately to act like that AFK so we can’t have that.
Yes I’m saying tankies should be deplatformed. Deal with it.
I agree that the purity check politics is counter intuitive, and also why they pose no threat of violent revolution in the west. The real threat to Western Capital comes from what the they have labled Cultural Marxism because the glaring hypocrisies of Capitalism are impossible to logically refute, hence the rise of Fascism. Also:
State capitalism is not worker ownership. Hence the “capitalism” part. Say what you want about Lenin but he used accurate terminology, there.
I mean literally literally means literally not ‘kinda a bit if you look with a squint and ignore the rest’
I get the urge to make your point but imagine you see someone talking about baking and they say ‘sugar is just dry salt’ you’re not going to listen to anything they say
Nazis get to march openly because they are corporate sponsored, and the authorities are all Nazis themselves. Conservatism is a Nazi ideology, and for thirty years the entirety of the US radio broadcast frequencies have been saturated with Nazi propaganda.
Don’t come in here talkin bout “derr derr tankies arent shit because you dont see them everywhere!”…unlike Nazis, they actually face resistance.
And you are extremely out of touch if you think tankies could ever manifest into anything more than a threat than a Unabomberesc bad actor.
We’ve literally had and still have totalitarian regimes that claimed to be communist what the hell are you talking about?
I hate tankies
So you hate them more than nazis?!?
wat
Sure, nazis are a bigger problem than tankies, but no one here needs to be told to look out for nazis. That’s kinda self explanatory.
But tankies are a lot less well known, but still have a very destructive ideology. Just look at the comments here — there are multiple people who asked what tankies even are.
Saying “Kick nazis out of 196” would be redundant, which can’t be said for “Kick tankies out of 196”.
The only issue is that I’ll see perfectly logical socialist, communist or anarchist arguments get attacked as “tankie” and I worry that all this hullabaloo is just rightists trying to set back leftist ideology by painting it all as tankie ideology.
I can attest to this. I’ve been called a tankie (on this subreddit, too) for politely asking someone not to call people the R-word.
Nazis are literally just less common here. There’s not much reason to constantly talk about them in a meta sub fashion when they are already so rare I haven’t seen one in weeks and are routinely and swiftly banned.
Tankies on the other hand, are not.
Your protest just looks silly and obviously ridiculous. Not talking about the problem of Nazis in online discourse 24/7 isn’t an endorsement of them, different spaces have different problems.
Exactly. Shocking as it may be to some people, we can hate 2 flavors of fascism at the same time. And it’s not like lemmy as a whole has had to defederate from 2 Nazi instances in the past couple of months due to their awful behavior, which cannot be said for a certain 2 tankie instances.
I’ve seen this reposted on the original 196 on Reddit multiple times so saying this is the worst 196 on the basis of this meme being posted makes no sense.
Also nazis are very unlikely to be participating in this community anyway, and if they are then they are either hiding to the point of indistinguishably or getting the ban-hammer really quickly. In the latter case, the problem is solved by the mods and in the former case, with the internet’s anonymity, someone fully to be a member of a digital community is just a regular member of the community.
Tankies on the other hand share many more values with the core demographic of this community so they might be less inclined to fully hide their views and their views simmering through might not immediately get them a ban (depending on what they let shine through, of course).
The blahaja zone 196 literally says fuck tankies on its header…
As it should
This is not a place for genocide apologists
What about
but what about?? hmm???
Right, I hate tankies on the internet and Republicans in real life (and also on the internet). It’s not my fault that tankies are more marginalized. But I assure you I have no shortage of contempt to go around.
Jessie what the hell are you talking about
He’s got a point, I hate tankies on my instance, but in the real world Nazis infiltrating conservative politics and getting elected presently is a much more pressing problem.
No one said it ain’t so. It’s just pure whataboutism.
tankies just want to LARP as revolutionaries online while never doing any real praxis
So you’re saying the more praxis I do, the leas tankies I will meet?
I used to do a little Praxis back in college, but I quit before it became habit-forming.
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Hexbear disliked that
I think we should consider the feelings of Hexbear users when posting or commenting.
If you think they’ll dislike it, it’s probably a good post.
Hexbear REALLY dislikes my compilation of their queerphobia at [email protected]
I mentioned the time hexbear’s admin called the (trans) admin of blahaj.zone (the trans instance) “transphobic” in another thread once. Some hexbear dipshit then “named and shamed” me as a transphobe.
They’re loud, obnoxious idiots – nothing more.
I wonder if it’s the same hexbear admin who banned me from the entire site after I called them on being in support of crypto, then made a post-hoc justification for. You know, that sham right wing capitalism alternative that pedos use to buy illegal material with.
Regardless, I made a comment saying “Stop working, ‘work will set you free’ is a nazi phrase” and they removed it for “Godwins Law” so obviously I’m not missing out because I have literally never seen anyone outside of a nazi misuse Godwin’s Law that egregiously.
the user you are replying to was banned for transphobia, they were dismissing the existence of enbys as their own gender. They’re an insane troll.
Enbies are not our own gender. We are thousands of genders.
Hexbear is full of transphobic trans people and Blahaj’s admin is also a transphobic trans person.
It’s a bit ironic to make that claim given that user was banned for transphobia.
DroneRights (me) was banned for saying gender neutral pronouns exist. Because Hexbear thinks gender neutral pronouns are transphobic.
no you’re making shit up, look at the goddamn modlog
Removed Comment “They” is a non gendering pronoun. If you use they/them, you’ll never misgender anyone, but you’ll also never gender anyone correctly either. Some people are okay with not being gendered and some people aren’t. You should respect their wishes once you’ve heard them, but I don’t believe you have any obligation to check them in advance.
by DroneRights [it/its] reason: enbyphobiaThis is pretty unambiguously a log of me saying gender neutral pronouns exist and the admins taking issue with that.
Good
they don’t have the ability to dislike, they removed the downvotes (i think) lmao
Based AF
Fuck tankies
196 is one of the greatest
subscommunitiesya’ll should be proud. Thank you for adding a little queer fun to my normal CIS life
The guy needs a speech bubble that says “Stalin did nothing wr-”
“We should all look up to Chi-”
I mean when people give Stalin shit yet don’t bat an eye at what Lenin did, I can safely assume they’re going off cold war propaganda.
Lenin had some legitimately good takes, e.g. that Stalin should, under no circumstance, ever be allowed to come to power. His analysis was also usually spot-on, but his solutions to things either hare-brained or naive, leading to, well, history. Or, put differently, on a scale from tragic hero to villain he’s at least in the middle while Stalin is a straight-up villain.
Lenin ordered the Red Terror. The main difference between him and Stalin when it comes to willingness to use state violence was the size of the state. His solution to political decent was mass executions. While it was announced as a class war on the bourgeoisie, it began with a massacreof sociallists. In addition to kulaks and white army afficers, it targeted the former bolshenik allies Left Socialists, anarchists, and striking workers. The Red Terror featured the creation of the gulags and concentration camps, hostage taking, and torture.
I mean, is “hang more kulaks or you’ll be hanged for treason” really that bad of a plan?
Nooo, you don’t understand. It was the material conditions that were forcing Lenin to order Trotsky to murder his way through the free territory of Ukraine.
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Fuck tankies.
These threads are odd to me, considering how many people call all communists tankies. The word seems to be used by anarchists, conservatives, communists, anti-communists, and more, and every person has a slightly different definition.
Half the people here could consider the other half to be the tankies everyone is mad at.
To be clear this isn’t me saying “be nice to the tankies” this is me saying “the overuse of this word is confusing the shit out of me.”
I’m an anarchist, we don’t call anybody tankies. Tankies is a term coming from the UK i think the 80s some eastern european nation was taken over by the USSR and some Brittish came out in support of it. So they were called tankies.
These political fighting words need to be layed to rest. Communists hate me as much as anybody else but I’d rather engage on the idea level instead of ad hominem attacks and name calling.
I suspect this whole tankie thing might be a coordinated propaganda campaign geared at discrediting communists and at the same time creating tension between them and other leftits. I suspect this as this whole infighting over small differences doesn’t lead to a victory for the left but effectively disables and neutralizes it.
I’m an anarchist, we don’t call anybody tankies.
Speak for yourself… anarchists are very prone to using that term to describe the technocratic left. I know, I’m one of them.
did you ignore the rest of what they were saying like how you ignored reading your own books
Oooh… somebody is upset.
Hi nice to meet you, friend! 😃
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It became confusing when liberals learnt of the word - now they hurl the word at anyone who dares to remind them that being pro-capitalist is still a right-wing thing to be.
…because none of those groups are Tankies and they are all unified against Tankies.
Tankies aren’t socialists or communists (not that those two things are the same either). They are the purist ideologues of communism, where compromise is defeat. Rampant in telling you why you’re wrong, and why only the purest form of communism will bring nirvana. All without understanding the consequences of what they propose.
Even the Communists don’t want them on their side.
Anyone who supports the idea of communism isn’t very intelligent to begin with. But Tankies are those who support oppressive dictators that claim to aline themselves with the left no matter what.
They support China in light of thier awful track of human rights and terrible government policies.
They support Russia in the Russia vs Ukraine conflict.
They support Hamas instead of the Palestinian people and dislike Isreal people because thier allegiances lay the opposite to the United States.
Anyone who supports the idea of communism isn’t very intelligent to begin with.
Anyone who makes a wack generic statement like that can’t be particularly “intelligent” either
Name one country where Communism didn’t lead to authoritarianism, brutalism and oppression of the population.
Go on I’ll wait.
That’s why only stoners, children and idiots idolise Communism.
That doesn’t feel like a good argument, there are many reasons why a government descends into any of those, for one the CIA is known to disrupt any socialist/communist attempt at government and that can and did cause brutalism.
I mean if any attempt to give an alternative to the suffocating order of power is going to have to survive against the pressure of such power of course the only “successful” ones will have traits of authoritarism and strict even violent control of power itself.
Now don’t misunderstand me I’m not saying that authoritarism is good or even that communism would certainly be able to lead to a better rule, I’m arguing that we don’t know that because there are many other factors that can lead to the failures of a system.
Also really a blanket statement followed by generic stereotypes meant to undermine any other opinion will not lead to any intelligent discussion and betterment of any of the sides, we can do so much better.
You can argue conceptually all you want. The fact remains, Communism has failed every time it has been implemented and has always devolved rapidly into an oppressive rule.
Because humans value individualism and Communism is inherently at odds with it.
Apart from that, trying to claim there might be “other factors” is just wild speculation and still side steps the point. Communism doesn’t work in practice.
I’m arguing that communism could work and that not working in our world doesn’t disprove it, for all that matters.
I also think that the concept of failure needs a little attention, I mean you could argue that democracy failed too, it’s supposed to give everyone an equal voice in the system and yet rich people have an incomparably stronger pull on elections and therefore decisions.
I would argue that humans value collectivism more than individualism, the last few centuries would see to go against this notion but for most of humanity we have lived in close knitted communities and valued our dépendance on each others. Even now the most individualist and powerful human would die in matter of months without help from the community (think of the water distribution and sanitation, no water = no food = death).
Thank you for arguing your point though, I appreciate it and it gave me very much food for thought, I’m not even denying that communism failed, it did, it has had its successes but it mostly failed it’s purpose, as did democracy. One of them pulled it off better though, of course democracy.
The point is that it can’t work in practice, only in theory. Because Marx failed to understand the human desire for self determination, freedom of expression and individuality.
Even if the price is a greedy capitalist system, humans will prefer it over a “Workers Paradise”, because of the allure of the aforementioned.
And that is why every time it is adopted it devolves into an authoritarian regime, because that’s the only way the leadership can maintain power, is through fear and brutality.
Because
humans valuebrainwashed humans value individualism despite not having a clue what that even meansFTFY.
Why do you think communism “lead” to authoritarianism? Do you think communism is inherently authoritarian? Is the distinction between Marxism-Leninism and Anarcho-Communism and other ‘communisms’ meaningless to you?
What do you think communism means?
I’ll bite. Anarcho-communism and ML are distinct in theory, but in practice would converge to generic authoritarian communism.
Let’s think about anarcho communism. Anarcho Communists call for the abolition of private property and collectively owned goods items and services. In a utopian society that would be pretty sweet, but in practical circumstances there would have to be someone enforcing this order (i.e. a state for all intents and purposes even if you don’t want to call it that). This makes the entire theory paradoxical and fundamentally equivalent with ML which is a more honest version of communism which recognises that the boot of the state is required to create any kind of societal order.
The state is needed to enforce private property, not the lack of it.
Critically, you assume that authority is required for order, so obviously you’re unable to envision whatever it might be that anarchists are getting at.
Sure, communism is an ideal that does not exist in practice currently, but the point of an ideal is to work towards it. The “anarcho” part specifies complete opposition to authority in praxis as well. Strategies could include unionising, community building, mutual aid, permablitzing, FOSS, copyleft, and whatever else can undermine the current power structures while maintaining anarchist principles. Which explicitly excludes Marxist-Leninist strategies of coopting the state, or forming any other kind of heirarchy.
It would also be needed to enforce the lack of private property as that implies it would be illegal for private individuals to own their own property, unless everybody in the world agreed anarcho communism was the way forward of course. But as human beings are still arguing about religion I can’t envision a world in which we agree on something as profound as that collectively.
In your scenario the mechanisms you listed such as unions will become a de facto state.
Communism is as much of a fairy tale as the Free Market.
For exactly the same reasons: humans are greedy and don’t care about others as much as we want to.
humans are greedy and selfish
That’s just what you choose to believe. These’s no scientific proof that that’s the case.
It’s entirely possible that the humans traits of greed and selfishness tend to become much more pronounced when humans are subjected to systems that reward those qualities.
Also, greed and selfishness are distinct from self-interest. And besides, self-interest doesn’t explain the entirety of human behaviour anyways.
Perhaps other systems that reward collaboration and egalitarianism and autonomy are not only possible, but also more sustainable that the shitshow we’ve got now, and all we need is for enough people to get out of the mental rut of believing capitalist bullshit about “humanity” and “life” just because it’s the status quo.
I’ll state my point again.
Name me one country where Communism has been adopted and hasn’t led to the outcomes I described.
Again, I wait for an example.
Name a country where communism was adopted in the first place
You’re just being facetious and evasive.
Clearly you are not arguing in good faith because you are just parroting bullshit tankie doctrine.
Blocked!
stoners, children and idiots
You lack substance, attack the idea not who voiced it. I am NO communist, but you are intellectually dishonest. If you don’t like communism (the idea) critisize the idea. You don’t even seem to have read “das Kaptial” so how can you even know what Communism even is to begin with?
Authoritarianism, brutalism and opression are independent of economic model. In argentinia they had the most free market capitalism ever in the 80s and they are guilty of all three: Authoritarianism, brutalism and opression.
Please do not conflate these things. The idea and a person claiming to implement that idea are not the same thing. Communism is an idea. Tell us what exactly about that idea you take issue with. Nobody is saying USSR was an El Dorado of free speech. Tbh I would probably have been murdered in the USSR but I probably would have shared the same fate in many other places like post ware spain …
Oh look at the first year political studies student right here. Well done, you read Das Kapital and become radicalised by it, how quaint and very cliche of you.
Next semester you will rambling on about Grundrisse, then it will be Wage, Labour & Captial…
None of that matters. Theory and practice are two different things.
So, in practice, name one country where Communism was adopted and it didn’t lead to Authoritarianism, Brutalism and Oppression of the population.
Oh look at the first year political studies student right here Stop projecting 😂
Democracy wouldn’t work if you tried to set it up in middle ages Europe either. All that proves is that the dominant kingdoms would close ranks and sabotage you, because you’re an obvious threat to their power.
It doesn’t mean that democracy is a bad system, or that it would never work. Although plenty of cogent and well lettered people over the centuries have spilled boatloads of ink arguing it was “unnatural” (goes against human nature) or “naive” (it might be nice, but the people can’t be trusted). But it still happened. It just took a while to get there.
I’m a bit of a gradualist in that respect, I admit. But that’s another topic.
That’s why only stoners, children and idiots idolise Communism.
Says the person so smart they capitalize the word communism.
So a tankie and a grammar Nazi. You really are scraping the crust of the bottom of the barrel at this point. 🙄
Anyone who supports the idea of communism isn’t very intelligent to begin with.
Good job projecting there… I award you ten out of ten PragerU coins for that one.
dislike Isreal people because thier allegiances lay the opposite to the United States.
Oh, it has nothing to do with the fact that Israel is a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state?
Found the tankie.
tankie.
If you don’t understand the meaning of certain words it might be a good idea to not use them, no?
Ugly, Dumb, Tankie scum.
Anyone who supports the idea of communism isn’t very intelligent
This isn’t fair. Anybody who can read through “das Kapital” must not only be very persistent and have endurance, no they also have to be fairly intelligent. I am surprised by the number of people who claim to have read “das Kapital” it has 4 VOLUMES ! 4 you can die if your bookshelf doesn’t hold and these 4 volumes fall on you.
Being a communist is just a function of your social class in society. If you are a laborer or poor you are naturally going to seek to pursue your interests for example you do not want to labor and have all the value you create go to the owners. You want to have a bigger share of the outcome of your labor. Communism is the consequence of this. Just like the royals and aristocrats and the captains of industry have the conservative ideology to further their interest so do the poor have communism. Neither conservatism nor communism make you smart or dumb. All it is is people pursuing their interest based on what position in society they hold. Both are ok. And none are dumb. It is inherently intelligent to pursue your own interest together with others who share that interest.
Edit: I am not getting into the support of any regimes or factions of wars as that is a can of worms i have no appetite for. 😅
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Maybe it’s just the circles I run in, but I understand “tankie” to mean leftists who think Soviet/Maoist/vanguard-party styles of Communist revolution/rule were good, actually, to the point of denying any bad things they did/do as “Western propaganda”.
Given the red scare in the US, our ability as a whole to use any sort of leftist political labels accurately across the population is basically non-existent, so I do understand the frustration by both tankies and non-tankie leftists about how the term gets used lately, especially in produce circles on social media.
But again maybe that’s just me. I don’t know if I would consider myself a communist, but I do consider myself as a yet undetermined variety of socialist, if that helps at all.
Then there’s folks like me who have no idea what the term means, you’re not alone in your confusion.
Tankies are ‘communists’ ala Mao and Stalin, i.e. okay with the violent opression of democratic movements and minorities.
At the end of the day, who gets to decide what the ideal “Worker’s Paradise” looks like? You? Me? Tankies are convinced that their vision is correct and will broker no compromise
Any ‘Worker’s Paradise’ wherin the freedom of speech is curtailed and protestors are shot in the streets isn’t one I want to live in.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=tsqE9kEsDVY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
“Damned Scots! They ruined Scotland!”
Communists seem to be sad, pathetic people now. I thought ya’ll had something, but you’re all just a bunch of fractured apologists trying to get one over on each other.
Sad, ya’ll actually had something going on at one point, now you’re just irrelevant
When all you so-called “democracy” fans decide to stop defending Nazis’ right to “free speech” while they’re actively trying to use it to kill you, lemme know and I’ll maybe start paying attention to what you’re saying.
Jessie what the fuck are you talking about
Yeah but where the hell are we defending Nazis here LOL
We aren’t, Tankies are. That’s what the comment says.
Now that makes sense
I’m sure I’m not the only who read the patent comment as a comment directed at us rather than tankies
After commenting this i realised lots of people didnt see it. It was obvious to me. dunno.
This isn’t intended to be antagonistic, even though I know it seems that way in text, but do you have any links to examples of tankies defending nazis? I’m just curious to see it.
If anything, on hexbear as an example, I see them claiming most everyone they don’t like is/is friends with nazis. They seem to use hatred of nazis as an excuse for supporting some really fucked up shit.
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No, Tankies don’t defend Nazis. Tankies depend on everyone just blindly accepting a wrong definition of free speech.
Tankies claim censorship whenever someone critizises them just like nazis and altrights do.- While this is not directly defending nazis, this is trying to make tolerance of intolerance to be universally accepted and thus helps nazis to also use intolerance freely because silencing harmful speech will be seen as “censorship”
Could you please show me the people defending Nazis here on 196?
It’s possible to be opposed to authoritarian state-capitalism and opposed to Nazism at the same time!
Nonono you see if you are not with them you are evil
In my eyes, it’s the Jedi who are evil!
WDYM possible? it’s a necessity
Here’s someone in this thread posting a meme that celebrates the fascist dictator Pinochet killing ~10,000 to 30,000 communists and communist sympathisers as well as “students, militants, trade unionists, writers, journalists, artists and any citizens suspected of being left-wing activists”
the only tankie with rights
let’s be honest, they should be removed from society
You are aware that the .ml doesn’t stand for machine learning, right?
Some people made an account there right in the beginning of the Reddit fiasco before there were any viable alternative instances, like I did. Looking at the age of the account, I’m guessing that’s what they did too.
Makes sense.
Yeah it’s the TLD for the country of Mali
This weird equivalence some people draw between liking/agreeing with a significant amount of ML work and defending everything the Soviet Union and CCP have ever done…it’s really weird
Maybe they know something we don’t.
EDIT: JSYK, it’s CPC. CCP is the intentionally wrong abbreviation that nazi propagandists use and I don’t think that’s what you intended.
The Chinese Communist Party (CCP),[3] officially the Communist Party of China (CPC),[4] is the founding and sole ruling party of the People’s Republic of China (PRC). - Wikipedia
No, it’s CCP. I don’t call Nazis by what they choose to be called so i will also not do that for the CCP
Don’t tell me you think the Nazi party were socialist because it was in their name?
No, but i will not call the CCP what they want to be called. The commies caused china to be what it is. Just because they are auth now doesnt change my hatred for the governing body.
if you’re gonna insist on being a nazi, your really should just follow the leader
I dont think its inately a nazi thing, CCP works better as a shorthand in english than CPC. Plus is there really much of a difference between calling them the Communist party of China or the Chinese Communist party. Usually in these circumstances the shorter option wins. Plus is there even a difference in Chinese? Like I know its a lot looser with this type of shit.
There’s a difference if you ask Tankies.
So there is no practical difference and at most ill get a bunch of dipshits with ill fitting ushankas screeching at me… Neat.
Correct.
what does machine learning have to do with it?
It’s a joke at the domain name for people who think it means “Machine Learning” and not “Marxism-Leninism”
TIL it was picked for Marxism-Leninism
I thought it was just a very cheap domain.
yeah, they used to be free
Flashbacks to dot.tk being a revolutionary act. Thank you Tokelau
I mean not really? I just say that because the developers of lemmy are quite left-wing. I wouldn’t even be surprised if it was the reason.
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Lemme guess, Holodomor?
It’s been done before. There’s a documentary about it called The Act of Killing, and a book called The Jakarta Method.
Fuck tankies, but I’ll start with the much more pressing problem with Nazis and alt right.
Why not both?
yes, cleansed of all the undesirables
I guess you can even say that they “should be physically removed”… 🚁
You know that’s a fascist meme right? And that right now you’re celebrating a fascist dictator doing mass killing of civilians just because (alongside the thousands of dead union members, democratic socialists, reporters, human rights protesters and students) he also killed thousands of marxist leninists and their sympathisers
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/physical-removal-physically-removed-so-to-speak
Tankies as well as fascists are imperialistic scum.
i wonder why this post about tankies is suddenly popular
sees top posts criticising israel and fascism
ah there it is
The “tankie” thing is such a Reddit holdover, both the word and the people it describes. Nobody outside of those hyper-online teenage ideology spaces like Twitter or Reddit cares about those made-up political categories that are only based on aesthetics.
Always remember that both the pro-Hamas pro-Assad “socialist” shitposter and the pro-Israeli pagan plural trans anarchist are some American high schoolers who are too anxious to go out to a store, let alone participate in a mass movement or join an organization. Nobody in the real world cares about those basement dwellers.
If the people you want to criticize have terrible political standings, and they just LARP as socialists while supporting inane reactionary actors like Russia, the Hamas, China or the DPRK, then make an actual argument against them and fight them on their standpoints in the actual class warfare out there, instead of making a dumb-ass childish meme. Go join a party, go agitate, go organize your workplace, go read something. Analyze the class politics they espouse, criticize them on that point, not on some moral failing.
Both “tankies” and “anti-tankies” only exist on Reddit. Nobody cares in real life.
