Uh, last I checked, Britannia rules the waves, not the Falklands. Checkmate, Margaret.
Say what you will. I find it a bit insane that a country can just own an island like that which is nowhere even near their mainland. If you just look at the map it’s quite obvious to who that land belongs to.
Something like Hawai is a more difficult case since it’s in the middle of ocean. Maybe it should just be a sovereign nation.
EDIT: Though since most people living there are native born Falkland islanders that speak English and voted to stay as a part of the UK then it’s perhaps something we should leave be as it is. Kind of similar case as with Israel to be honest.
There were no inhabitants of the Falklands before the British and French showed up. It’s not at all like Israel, and for Argentina to colonise the Falklands would be unjustifiable colonialism.
By similar to Israel I mean that non-optimal decisions were made in the past but it’s done now and trying to undo it would just cause further pointless harm to people.
@Thorny_Insight @thehatfox There are a thousand kilometres of open ocean between Argentina and the Falklands.
There are a thousand kilometres of open ocean between Argentina and the Falklands.
If you look at the map on the above link, that distance is not straight East to West, its to the center of Argentina, SE to NW. Checked a couple of web sites, and they all measture a longer, diagonal distance.
More importantly, if you use the Google Maps measuring tool, and you measure from the West coast of the islands to the East coast of Argentina, going directly East to West, you get this answer …
Total distance: 338.20 mi (544.28 km)
The Malvinas are allot closer than Hawaii is to the US.
@CosmicCleric and still massively outside any recognised concept of territorial waters, not that that matters because a country that wasn’t even you, which still exists, which you erroneously claim to be the true continuation of, planting a flag somewhere and then abandoning it for hundreds of years doesn’t give you any kind of right to tell the only people who have every actually built a community there in the history of the world that they need to leave their home.
and still massively outside any recognised concept of territorial waters
The distance West to East is a little over 350 miles. That’s pretty damn close.
planting a flag somewhere and then abandoning it for hundreds of years
Are you even aware of the history? That link I’ve been plastering all over this topic, talks about this.
Also, The Great Britain laid claim to another chuck of rock sticking out of the ocean further South, and all they have there is a plaque designating it as their property.
@CosmicCleric territorial waters is 12 nautical miles, mate, not that that matters because there are plenty of instances where countries are much closer than that and the median line becomes the boundary.
Regardless, “we’re the nearest continental landmass, but it’s still a really fucking long way” is not, and never has been, a valid excuse to fucking invade somewhere.
As for the history, they were either discovered by the British or the Dutch, uninhabited. The only people to have ever lived there that weren’t part of a temporary garrison are the ancestors or the current population. It’s their home, and Argentina’s only interaction with the place is as a failing state engaging in a war of conquest.
Also they’ve got, like, five rowing boats, a Cessna, and a guy with an air rifle, so it’s kinda moot.
Regardless, “we’re the nearest continental landmass, but it’s still a really fucking long way” is not, and never has been, a valid excuse to fucking invade somewhere.
Never said it was, just that it bolsters their claim of ownership.
As for the history, they were either discovered by the British or the Dutch, uninhabited. The only people to have ever lived there that weren’t part of a temporary garrison are the ancestors or the current population. It’s their home, and Argentina’s only interaction with the place is as a failing state engaging in a war of conquest.
That’s not correct. If you read over the link that I’ve posted way too many times in this thread, you’ll see that. Also, their claim is based on the fact that Spain owned the islands, and they inherited them when they won their independence from Spain, so its not just about if Argentinian boots were on the ground there (though there WERE boots at one point as well).
If you just look at the map it’s quite obvious to who that land belongs to.
Denmark isn’t going to be happy about having to give Greenland to Canada but I guess it is what it is.
I’m not advocating for UK to give Falklands to Argentina. It’s too late now. Otherwise yes, makes no sense for Denmark to have Greenland either.
People lived on Hawaii since time immemorial. They had a proper Kingdom and everything with the US meddling with putsches and coups, then they had a Republic, then the US annexed the whole thing, very much not with consent of the Hawaiians. That was 1898, statehood was granted in 1959. The Falklands were uninhabited, settled first by the French in 1764. They also enjoy autonomy in everything but foreign relations and defence and if they wanted to they would readily be granted independence, the situation couldn’t be more different. Practically speaking the relation of the Falklands to the UK is much more similar than that of Greenland to Denmark than that of, say, Indiana to the US federal government, which is the exact relationship Hawaii has with the federal government.
Also it’s not by far the largest European overseas territory, that’d be French Guyana. Who btw overwhelmingly voted against becoming an overseas collectivity, they kept their status as “just another department” with no more autonomy than the departments in Europe. European colonialism died pretty much exactly with Algerian independence, what’s left are a flurry of overseas territories which we couldn’t get rid of if we wanted because they want to stay, politically, part of Europe.
find it a bit insane that a country can just own an island like that which is nowhere even near their mainland. If you just look at the map it’s quite obvious to who that land belongs to.
The UN agrees with you, and asked Great Britain to give the islands back to Argentina.
Not quite.
The Special Committee on Decolonization concluded its 2021 substantive session today, approving 18 draft resolutions, including one requesting that the Governments of Argentina and the United Kingdom resume negotiations as soon as possible to reach a peaceful resolution of their sovereignty dispute over the Falkland Islands (Malvinas)*.
I was speaking more about this, but that’s an interesting read as well.
The link you shared shows UN resolution 502 which states:
- immediate cessation of hostilities
- withdrawal of argentine forces
- start diplomatic means to settle the matter.
Nowhere does it mention telling British to return the island to Argentina.
The actual verbage of the third bullet item you listed is as follows …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_502
- Calls on the Governments of Argentina and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to seek a diplomatic solution to their differences and to respect fully the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
I’m assuming thats meant to say negatiate the return of the islands, because there sure as shit nothing else that would be discussed to resolve the diplomatic solution, unless they went for some funky kind of co-op/timeshare solution. They can’t state the return blatently because the UK would not agree to that in an initial resolution.
https://press.un.org/en/2021/gacol3347.doc.htm
In the ensuing debate, delegates, many from the Latin American and Caribbean region, supported Argentina’s claim of sovereignty and urged Buenos Aires and London to begin negotiations as soon as possible on the basis of the relevant United Nations resolutions. Several cautioned against unilateral actions, expressing concern about the United Kingdom’s military presence in the Falklands (Malvinas), and by extension, the South Atlantic.
Hawaii used to be a sovereign nation.
Ok compromise. Argentina gets them back but the British museum gets whatever they want from them first.
The thing is, Argentina has never had the Falkland Islands. The British discovered them first.
So Britain has claimed ownership of the islands longer than Argentina has existed?
longer than Argentina has existed?
Argentina used to belong to Spain, then won their sovereignty. They claim they inherited the islands from Spain when they became a nation.
Lots of places used to belong to Spain. That doesn’t mean Argentina gets them all. Their logic is flawed and specious.
Lots of places used to belong to Spain. That doesn’t mean Argentina gets them all. Their logic is flawed and specious.
The US used to belong to England too, doesn’t mean that England can ask for it back. I mean, technically, the US was literally stolen by former British citizens from England by force, legally. At least Canada did their country birth and land title/ownership thing the legal way (AFAIK). That’s one hell of a rabbit hole you could go down.
No that’s another completely different rabbit hole. That’s not the same argument or logic at all. Spain isn’t asking for Argentina back. That’s the only comparable situation to what you’re suggesting.
The comparable logic to what you’re saying would be for America to say that because they won their independence from the British they should now also own Bermuda. That’s the logic you’re using in Argentina claiming the Falklands. Argentina has no claim to the Falklands at all. Neither based on past ownership nor based on citizenship. It’s simply another unrelated territory. Argentina might as well claim they should get Chile by the same logic.
Because “getting them back” worked so well for the (not for long) ruling regime of Argentina last time around. Lol.
Just for who didn’t know the story: in order to distract the population from a 120% inflation, the ruling far right dictator decided to take back the islands, (sounds similar?) thinking that the us would support them and that the UK wouldn’t fight back.
Anyway the UK is very far and it would take months to send reinforcements, right? And the US loves us, just because we’re not communists like other neighbors. We gonna just take them back with a special military operation, no war declaration needed.
While for a short time it worked as the local media was ecstatic about getting back the Malvinas islands and didn’t talk anymore about the rampant inflation, it eventually backfired spectacularly and the fascist regime was overturned.
That government was put in power after a US-backed coup overthrew the democratically-elected Isabel Perón. Henry Kissinger was instrumental in orchestrating the coup.
Kissinger has done a supernatural amount of damage to the world.
He is truly an evil motherfucker. Every once in a while I still come across some fresh new horror he was involved in.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_Henry_Kissinger
Just started this book. It’s a great read but I’m super depressed for it.
Looks good, but I don’t think I could! Kissinger depressed me for years. I’m old enough to remember some of his antics when they happened.
And he’s somehow still alive, thus proving that there is no God.
Yes his existence singlehandedly disproves the fair/just world hypothesis as well.
Turns out that what goes around doesn’t come around after all.
I thought Isabel Peron was just in the line of succession when Juan Peron died, and was herself prone to pursue anti-leftist policies?
Oh so THIS is how ww3 starts
I wouldn’t call the Falkland Islands War 2: Electric Boogaloo “WW3”. More like a police action, to be honest. The Argentine Navy and Air Force these days is frankly laughable in comparison to their military strength before the first FI war, let alone the strength of the RN and RAF today.
Who knows, maybe some friends will lend a nuke or two
Why on earth would nukes be given over some islands with a population of only a few thousand?
It’s a question of principle
No, it’s just nonsense.
Not gonna happen
Are we just doing out of order reruns of the 20th century?
Are we just doing out of order reruns of the 20th century?
When it comes to humans, it’s been my experience that if you don’t resolve issues they come back to bite you in the ass, at some point.
There was a fight for them and they’re still British. There was a referendum and the islanders overwhelmingly want to stay British.
The UN asked Great Britain to give the island back to Argentina, but they refused.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute
I think this one is just populist sabre rattling.
Just a reminder: that there was no one living in the Falklands prior to the UK and France showing up. My understanding is that no one even wanted the islands until they found oil nearby. While it’s weird that the UK has a colony all the way down at the tip of South America, there’s no reason to argue for Argentinian ownership of the Falklands. Hell, Argentina taking ownership of the Falklands is more colonialist than UK maintaining ownership due to the population being mostly British and French.
Heh, getting tired of copy/pasting this link, but so many bad takes are being stated as fact on this topic…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute
Maybe you should read what you’re posting instead and realize you’re on the wrong side of this?
I personally think calling them a colony is incorrect. They are an island where UK citizens live and have lived since the beginning of human habitation. They get to vote. They have the same culture and want to stay in the UK. The only thing that matches the colonial definition is that they are far away which is a relative term.
They are an island where UK citizens live and have lived since the beginning of human habitation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute
beginning of human habitation
They’re not Aboriginal though.
The Falklands were never inhabited by aboriginals.
In fact, there is no evidence that Aboriginal or Argentinian people had ever visited or had knowledge that the islands existed prior to the British arriving.
The Falklands were never inhabited by aboriginals.
Yep. That was one of reasons of Argentina’s objections to the British claim, that the british citizens are not indigenous to the island.
In fact, there is no evidence that Aboriginal or Argentinian people had ever visited or had knowledge that the islands existed prior to the British arriving.
That’s not true. Check out the wiki page about it, it has a whole timeline, including who lived on it when.
Also, Argentina claims ownership by inheritance from Spain when they won their independence from Spain.
I mean the original US states were also British colonies with ethnically British people having fairly British culture. They just revolted over unfair taxes and the culture diverged with immigration of other Europeans.
The main difference between the pre revolution colonies and the Falklands is that there weren’t any natives on the Falklands that had to be removed first, and the Falklands are much smaller and less important.
Falklands is that there weren’t any natives on the Falklands that had to be removed first
Actually I believe there were a few Argentinians there they were removed forcefully, in 1833.
It was discovered and settled by Britain, France, and Spain (in that order). But nobody lived there except some gauchos and soldiers (many of whom were British)
Pinedo entertained plans for resisting, but finally desisted because of his obvious numerical inferiority and the want of enough nationals among his crew (approximately 80% of his forces were British mercenaries who refused to fight their countrymen).[citation needed] The British forces disembarked on 3 January and switched the flags, delivering the Argentine one to Pinedo, who left on 5 January.[3]
Recognising Vernet’s settlement had British permission, Onslow set about ensuring the continuation of that settlement for the replenishment of passing ships. The gauchos had not been paid since Vernet’s departure and were anxious to return to the mainland. Onslow persuaded them to stay by paying them in silver for provisions and promising that in the absence of Vernet’s authority they could earn their living from the feral cattle on the islands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassertion_of_British_sovereignty_over_the_Falkland_Islands_(1833)
The modern nation of Argentina didn’t exist in 1833. They were the “United Provinces of the Río de la Plata”. If you think they have a claim, then Bolivia, Brazil, and Uruguay have an equal claim. Do you believe that?
But nobody lived there except some gauchos and soldiers (many of whom were British)
I mean, that’s blatantly not true.
From the wiki article …
France was the first country to establish a permanent settlement in the Falkland Islands, with the foundation of Port-Saint-Louis on East Falkland by French explorer Louis Antoine de Bougainville in 1764.[2] The French colony consisted of a small fort and some settlements with a population of around 250.
A pop of 250 is not “some gauchos and soldiers”. They were not even “(many of whom were British)”.
I mean, we can go down the rabbit hole and start a population census conversation based on year-to-year, but that seems excessive for the conversation being had, and something that is really not needed.
Its fair to say that the French had a presence there, they gave that presence to Spain, and Argentina inherited that presence from Spain (going around the long way, as the Doctor would say).
The gauchos are the settlers you mentioned. The soldiers were mostly British mercenaries. Did you read the article?
A colony of 240 people are not a few people, and are not all comprised of just gauchos or British mercenaries, they were French there as well.
I’m going to “bow out” of further replies. I’ve been at this for coming up on 24 hours now, and am tired of everyone wanting their “pound of flesh”, and have said pretty much everything I can say. No disrespect meant to you, just thing the conversation has reached a termination point. Take care.
My understanding is that no one even wanted the islands until they found oil nearby.
Bingo!
there’s no reason to argue for Argentinian ownership of the Falklands. Hell, Argentina taking ownership of the Falklands is more colonialist than UK maintaining ownership
The United Nations says otherwise.
Argentina: we will retake Las Malvinas!
Royal Navy: Oh really? Try it. We’d really like a chance to demonstrate the combat effectiveness of our QE2 Class Carriers. And Bob here hasn’t shot his destroyer’s deck guns since '82 and he’s bored!
RAF: (Rapidly dusting off the Vulcans and Nimrods)
Royal Marines: (Lights up a Benson & Hedges cigarette)… Right… (Slaps knees and stands up)… Grab yer Bergens and Bayonets lads!
@ThePyroPython @thehatfox The Vulcans were not useful the first time, and they have been scrapped for a very long time.
There are Eurofighter Typhoons based there, with plenty more able to get there in hours (the Typhoon has Mach 1.5 supercruise and a long ferry range, just take off a tanker from Mount Pleasant to meet them with more fuel en route).
Given the Typhoons can carry bombs as well as being air superiority fighters, the RAF would not need to dust off anything.
OK, so maybe you can explain this, many things all over western Canada are naned for “Mount Pleasant”, a cemetery in Swift Current, a neighborhood in Vancouver, it pops up all over, and no one seems to know why, what or anything about the term, from old timers to Google.
I mean, the Brits might be chomping at the bit for it. I mean with Brexit and all, I’m pretty sure it’s been greyer than usual in the UK. Nothing like completely mopping up some country trying to invade your land to put on a slightly brighter disposition.
That said, I think Milei has mostly been talking about attempting to get them back diplomatically. Which I’m highly doubtful anyone remotely responsible for making that kind of decision in the UK is vaguely affable towards entertaining. Just a hunch.
I really hope Argentina doesn’t hand the UK’s faltering Conservative government a nice patriotic war just before the next election. If they hadn’t done that in 1982 we might have seen the back of Thatcher before the worst damage was done.
The guy might be a nutjob but I don’t think he’s talking about getting them back through war, Argentina has next to no military.
Having colonies in the year 2023 is ridiculous though, I don’t know why so many comments act like Britain is in the right here in any way whatsoever.
If you think the Falklands should be part of Argentina, logically Hawaii should be part of Kiribati. Alaska should be Russian/Canadian, etc etc. If you think about it for more than a minute it becomes clear that geographical location is not the only factor or even the most important one.
geographical location is not the only factor or even the most important one
I’m pretty sure that if another country took over Hawaii, or the Catalina Islands off the coast of California, especially just for being able to put a marker down on future oil reserves, that the US would not be ok with that claim.
Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute .
Even if your bullshit wasn’t bullshit, theres another huge difference you are ignoring - the US is capable of doing something about it, Argentina is not.
the US is capable of doing something about it, Argentina is not.
Well, they did try, and failed, but it was costly for both sides, so it wasn’t a hard one-sided affair.
Besides, that’s not the point I’m trying to make, and not relevant to this discussion. The point of legal ownership by “first rights”, and not “might makes right”, is what I’m speaking towards.
Because the people of the Falklands literally voted to stay with the UK?
Because the population of the Falklands (that we installed there) want to remain part of Britain for whatever stupid reason.
‘Get them back’. What does ‘back’ even mean in this statement? Of all the countries that have ever legitimately ruled the Falklands, Argentina was never one of them.
The penguins have a better claim to the Falklands than Argentina…
Malvinas islans are legally and physically part of Argentina and this is accepted by a majority in the UN, they are also the symbol of the centrist liberals (imagine the island of the statue of liberty) so this new neonazi psycho (and elon fan redditor) wants to “eliminate” their symbols including the ministries, universal health care, education systems, social plans that support several million of poor and make their party illegal
The metric by which Argentina has a legal claim on the islands would also give the US a claim.
Argentina is making the case for being invaded by the US under the causus belli of defense from an invading force whenever they say they get to eat the Falklands because something something tordesillas
That’s not what I’m debating here, what I debating is that the new far right regime is willing to sacrifice sovereign land just to make a point, to “own the leberals”
IT IS NOT SOVEREIGN LAND THO
I agree it’s more British than Argentinian. But “Argentina never one of the rulers” isn’t quite right. There were several stints of Argentinan (or Spanish but back when that was the same thing) occupation long before the war.
Yeah, Spanish. That’s the point. There were penguins, then was French, it was Spanish, it was British. It was never Argentinian. There were never civilians there.
The only civilians who have lived there are the Falkland Islanders, who identify as British. Argentina’s claim is based on the Spanish once having a very limited military presence there, on which basis they want to assert some sort of imperialist sovereignty over a bunch of civilians whose ancestors have been there for hundreds of years and who have only ever considered themselves British.
There were penguins, then was French, it was Spanish, it was British. It was never Argentinian.
They inherited the islands from Spain (as per their claim) when they won their independence from Spain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute
Back to the British (the ones who discovered them), I guess!
.z .,-,-…**x Z **********
On a differrent note: What would anybody want of the Falkland Islands? I mean, it is a lousy island with 3000 inhabitants and half a million sheep, and they live of fishing, wool, and day tourism from cruise ships.
On the one hand, maintaining a military presence equivalent to more than half the number of native inhabitants costs the British a shitload of money. On the other hand, starting another bloody war with the UK in the middle of an economic catastrophe over a piece of rock with sheep does not make any sense for Argentina, either.
Falklands nascent oil industry + giving the population a rallying cry to distract from poor economic conditions.
OK, oil could be an incentive, but I doubt that it is much or one would have heard of them.
I should have excluded pure rhetorics as a reason. The Chinese at least had a good economic reason to get Hong Kong into their hands.
OK, oil could be an incentive, but I doubt that it is much or one would have heard of them.
Don’t mean to be rude, but you could also just not have been educated on the matter, and its actually more important than you think, especially to those who claim ownership for the oil rights reasons.
Usually world politics, when it comes to oil access/ownership, is not something that is discussed in the open, often. We in the US never say that we do stuff in the Middle East for the oil, we say its for a hunder other reasons, but its first and foremost its for the oil, not that news stations will ever report on that fact.
We in the US never say that we do stuff in the Middle East for the oil, we say its for a hunder other reasons, but its first and foremost its for the oil,
While a common conspiracy theory, this is never borne out by evidence.
We in the US never say that we do stuff in the Middle East for the oil, we say its for a hunder other reasons, but its first and foremost its for the oil,
While a common conspiracy theory, this is never borne out by evidence
It’s actually been stated officially during reporter questioning actually, multiple times throughout the years. It’s just not something you see discussed much on CNN directly.
Don’t mean to be rude (in case you’re not a bot) but it takes a special kind of ignorance to believe that oil has nothing to do with what’s going on in the Middle East. It’s not the only factor, but it’s definitely a factor.
Oil dictates our relationship with Saudi Arabia, but is not tied to overall ME policy, and there is 0 evidence to the contrary.
Not only am I not a bot, im old enough to remember “no blood for oil” protests and how dumb and distracting they were from legitimate reasons not to engage in ME war.
Your conspiracy theory has gotten people killed
and there is 0 evidence to the contrary.
As I’ve mentioned previously, during official news conferences officials have stated the need to protect the oil supply and the access to it.
Not only am I not a bot, im old enough to remember “no blood for oil” protests and how dumb and distracting they were from legitimate reasons not to engage in ME war.
As someone who is also old enough to remember those kind of protests, and the embargos, etc., I agree. Fighting over resources is not healthy, and that resources should be shared instead.
Your conspiracy theory has gotten people killed
Its not a conspiracy theory, its what drives the politics in the ME, on multiple levels. And its not my theory, its what the majority of people have decided on (the importance of oil).
OK, looks like there is actually serious amounts of oil there. But quite deep and under water. Still, worth more than all of the island wrapped up as a present ;-) TIL.
Its really crazy how that stuff works. I read an article once about how nations try to claim even the smallest piece of rock in places just so that they can have claim over the resources not on land itself but in the ocean around it. Has to do with some UN treaties/rules about resource availability/ownership.
On a differrent note: What would anybody want of the Falkland Islands?
Oil in the nearby ocean ownership is the reason why.
Its the way international treaties work as far as claiming ownership of resources in the ocean.
그리고 독도는 한국 땅!
