And instead changing the time work and other things happens depending on where you are. Would be easier to arrange meetings across the globe. Same thing applies to summertime. You may start work earlier if you want, but dont change the clocks!
“you’re fucking late to your goddamn shift you lazy piece of shit it’s already 35*()*46 B,shk past 73!!”
Pilots already do this. Everything in aviation is “ZULU” time. In computers, we call it UTC or +0000. It actually works really well because we cross time zones so easily.
I would totally be in favor of switching to a universal time zone. But inertia is hard to overcome. Most people don’t change time zones very often as they’re usually far from population centers and people know that when they take a trip, that’s when the time zone will change so for most it’s not a daily concern and getting used to a new time zone model would be annoying. When you tell people about the US state of Indiana, they really start to change their minds, that place is fucked up.
Hint: Reykjavik, Iceland is a major city that uses UTC always, no Daylight Savings Time there. I always keep my second time zone on my watch and phone set to that.
Because it:
-
causes the question “What time is it there?” to be useless/unanswerable
-
necessitates significant changes to the way in which normal people talk about time
-
convolutes timetables, where present
-
means “days” are no longer the same as “days”
-
complicates both secular and religious law
-
is a staggering inconvenience for a minimum of five billion people
-
makes it near-impossible to reason about time in other parts of the world
-
does not mean everybody gets up at the same time, goes to work at the same time, or goes to bed at the same time
-
is not simpler.
___
causes the question “What time is it there?” to be useless/unanswerable
That is a feature, it removes one thing to worry about.
necessitates significant changes to the way in which normal people talk about time
Yes, I think this is the biggest argument against. It would take a long time to get used to.
convolutes timetables, where present
How?
means “days” are no longer the same as “days”
Same as point 2.
complicates both secular and religious law
How?
is a staggering inconvenience for a minimum of five billion people
How?
makes it near-impossible to reason about time in other parts of the world
How? In my opinion it makes it easier.
does not mean everybody gets up at the same time, goes to work at the same time, or goes to bed at the same time
Yes. This is true.
is not simpler at all
Of course it is simpler. You have just removed a huge source of complexity. It still isn’t simple because people will still live their life at different times. But it is simpler.
means “days” are no longer the same as “days”
Who gets to pick when “noon” is when the sun is usually above their head? Let’s assume Greenwich for posterity sake. That means a bunch of the world will spend most of their “daytime” in traditionally nighttime hours. Thus spending your day (time when the sun is up) and your day (the time when you do your work) will not intuitively mean the same thing
complicates both secular and religious law
Islam requires regular prayer in the direction of mecca and plenty of nations have Islamic law. At a minimum they’d have to rewrite those laws, at most it’d cause a literal schism
is a staggering inconvenience for a minimum of five billion people
“We changed how clocks work for almost everyone on the planet to make some nerds’ lives easier. Please go change your planners, clocks, schedules, applications, signs, etc to adjust”
makes it near-impossible to reason about time in other parts of the world
In most of the world, you can reasonably assume the sun goes up around 7 am and sets around 7. Obviously that changes but you can pretty reasonably assume when people will be around and doing stuff by looking at their time. In this new system you’ll need to figure out what times people do most of their activities based off of geological segments of the planet and checking what their “daytime” is. Which is already a problem timezones address
is not simpler at all
On a base level maybe, but after fixing all the other problems it causes the resulting system would likely be just as if not more complicated than our current time system
That means a bunch of the world will spend most of their “daytime” in traditionally nighttime hours
No, no one would do this. You would continue living your life when the sun is up, the number on the clock would just be different.
Islam requires regular prayer in the direction of mecca and plenty of nations have Islamic law.
So just continue doing this based on the previous schedule? Many religions still celebrate holidays based on alternate calendars and many holidays have strange rules for when they occur. This seems like an incredibly minor issue to me?
We changed how clocks work
Yeah, I agree that the change would be so painful that it isn’t worth it. I am just arguing that I think the end result would be better. Not much better, but better.
you can pretty reasonably assume when people will be around and doing stuff by looking at their time
This seems like a very artificial problem. When will you know their time previously but not their location or relative time of day. You will still know what people are doing. Just because you add the magic number based on their location in the world before consulting their schedule instead of after doesn’t change anything. This only seems like a problem if you were magically teleported to another location underground and only have access to a clock.
“it’s 2 everywhere, why aren’t you awake?”
I am just arguing that I think the end result would be better. Not much better, but better.
It would be better for whichever countries near the 0 offset (eu if using utc), but massive downgrade for no real benefit for countries near +12h offset (asia pacific). This will be seen as another instance of the west flexing their global power and will take generations to adapt. But if the offset were reversed (asia pacific at 0, the west at +12h) things would go much smoother there.
I think it would be better everywhere. It may be slightly easier if your noon is close to solar noon but really other than Europe and Africa everyone would be in the same boat of having the day number roll over sometime during their waking day. This would probably be the biggest downside but seems like something that language would adapt to quickly. I live at -5 so my day would roll over at 19:00 solar time. So it isn’t like my location is immune to the day rollover issue.
-
I use UTC for all of my logs. Keeps it less confusing.
deleted by creator
We cant get Americans to use metric…
You could always start switching over then give up half way through. Then you’d be like your Grandpa England.
One big argument I keep hearing is that it would be too expensive.
It’s honestly not that bad. The estimated cost is around $350 million. Now, that might sound like a lot but when you take into account that it’s about $1 per person it doesn’t seem so bad.
Now, if you consider the military budget of $480 Billion per year it seems even smaller.
It would take approximately 0.07% of the 2024 military budget to switch to metric.It’s not cost, it’s just apathy. For most people it would take a while to learn, especially since after school you’re not really measuring that much in most jobs.
Step 1. Make all food packaging list both for a few years. That easy, just put it out there so it starts sinking in slowly.
I mean why?
I imagine almost a bigger issue than the cost would be the… what’s the American equivalent of a Gammon?.. you know, those people that wouldn’t change to Metric if their life depended on it. Four rods to the hogshead was good enough for their grandpappy and no filthy pinko liberal commie will get them to change. The ones that still don’t wear seatbelts unless a cop is watching.
There are lots of negative opinions in this thread. But I think it is actually a good idea!
It makes time math a lot easier. Of course the switching cost is very high. (And probably not worth it). Much like it would be better if we counted using base 12 it is a better system once the switch would be made.
The main upside is that it is very easy to agree on times. I’ve had job interviews missed because time math was done wrong. They told me my local time and the interviewer their local time but they didn’t match! And it isn’t obvious to either party. When I see “10:00 America/Toronto, 08:00 America/San Francisco” it isn’t really obvious that there was an error here unless you happen to have the offset memorized. With a global time everyone would immediately agree on a time.
One common complaint is that you can no longer use “local time” to estimate if someone is available. But if anything I consider this a feature! Not everyone wakes up at 8 and is at work by 9. Some people prefer to have meetings later, some prefer earlier. Maybe it is best to stop assuming and just asking people. “Hey, what times do you like to take meetings at?” But even if you don’t want to do that it is just as easy to look up “work hours in San Francisco” than it is to look up “current time in San Francisco”. (In fact it may be easier since you don’t need to then do math to find the offset and hope that daylight savings doesn’t change the offset between when you look it up and when the event happens.) On top of that if someone schedules a meeting with you then you immediately know if it works well for you, because you know what times you like to have meetings at. IMHO it is much better to know the time of the meeting reliably than to try to guess if it is a good time for other parties. If the other parties can reliably know what time it is scheduled for they know if it is a good time for them, and can let you know if it isn’t.
I think the real main downside is in how we talk about times and dates. Right now it is very common to say something like Feb 15th, 14:00-19:00. However if the day number changes during the day it can be a bit confusing. But honestly I’m sure we will get used to this quickly. Probably it just ends up being assumed. If you write Feb 15th 22:00-03:00 people know that the second time is the the 16th. People working night shifts deal with this problem now and it has never seemed like a big complaint. Things like “want to grab dinner on the 15th” may be a bit more confusing if your day rolls over around dinner time where you are, but I’m sure we would quickly adopt conventions to solve this problem. It would definitely be a big change, but these aren’t hugely complex problems. Language and culture would quickly adapt.
So overall I think it is better. It makes it 100% reliable to agree and discuss specific times and it doesn’t really change the difficulty of identifying a good time in a particular location. The only real downside is how we communicate about time currently, but I think that would be pretty easy to overcome.
However I don’t think it is really worth changing. It would be a huge shift for a relatively little gain. How about we just focus on getting rid of Daylight Savings Time for now, then we can ponder switching to UTC and base 12 counting in the future.
We do. It’s called swatch time.
(Seriously)
I was scrolling all the way down, looking for someone to mention Swatch Internet Time. I never got the hang of it, with regards to what beats related to various times of the day for myself, but I love the idea.
I really wish that had caught on. Were you a Phantasy Star Online player, by chance?
Lol. i was!
It’s a cool idea, but then you lose the local representation of the daylight cycle, which just complicates things again as you try to schedule things with people in other countries without knowing if it’s their bedtime or not.
I play games with international friends and work with international colleagues, so I have my fair share of troubles with time zones. If anything, abolishing daylight savings worldwide would yield much better results.
On a side note, when scheduling events on Discord, I like to add in a unix timestamp that shows everybody their local time. Quite convenient!
It’s a cool idea, but then you lose the local representation of the daylight cycle
We already lost that with our 1-hour time zones and daylight savings. Clock time is no longer bound to solar time, and I think we’re overdue for the retirement of local time.
Managing geographically-dispersed schedules on a single unified time standard isn’t any more complicated than trying to remember everyone’s time zones already is, and would likely reduce confusion overall since unlabeled timestamps would no longer be ambiguous.
If some manager wants to shift their workers’ schedule to account for seasonal light availability? Then just fucking do that and don’t make everyone have to run around manually updating all the clocks.
True, but time zones offer a good compromise between solar time and globally-synchronized time.
Having 12pm noon be approximately when the sun is highest in the sky is better than not at all, and still gives some form of regional cohesion in terms of timekeeping.
There are pretty extreme examples, of course; China is one entire UTC+8 time zone, and that means Tibet is still dark when Shanghai is wide awake, which is dumb, and as annoying as the US’s 4 time zones is (not counting Alaska and Hawaii), it still makes regional sense.
Fuck daylight savings time.
Removed by mod
So You Want To Abolish Time Zones
In a nutshell:
Before abolishing time zones:
I want to call my Uncle Steve in Melbourne. What time is it there?
Google tells me it is currently 4:25am there.
It’s probably best not to call right now.
After abolishing time zones:
I want to call my Uncle Steve in Melbourne. What time is it there?
It is 04:25 (“four twenty-five”) there, same as it is here.
Does that mean I can call him?
I don’t know.
I am too late. I knew this would be the top post, even though the arguments brought forth in the blog post are utterly stupid. I would even go so far as to say their arguments are presented in bad faith, because I refuse to believe the author actually thinks that’s how it would go. (They have some seriously awesome posts, I most highly recommend https://qntm.org/mmacevedo)
With time zones:
you Google what the timzone offset is (aka at which point in your local timezone the sun rises over there). Considering this sunrise time you then have to make a judgement if your uncle would be awake now.Without times zones: you Google at which time the sun rises over there. Considering this sunrise time you then have to make a judgement if your uncle would be awake now.
It’s literally the same process.
Ah yes, sunrise. That things that never ever changes depending on the time of year or location on the planet. Very dependable and memorizable thing, the sunrise.
Very dependable and memorizable thing, the sunrise.
Uh, yeah? Because it defines your circadian rhythm?
Ah yes, clock time. That things that never ever changes depending on the time of year or location on the planet. Very dependable and memorizable thing, the clock time.
The arguments are exactly the same. It basically boils down to the philosophy if you want the daily life to be controlled by clocks or by the natural sleep/wake cycle of the body.
Some prefer by the clock, because it provides a fixed constant, even if it may run counter to our very nature. You very well may prefer that. Others argue for a more natural sleep cycle, especially when it comes to school for example. Complaints about work starting too early are not exactly rare either.Some prefer by the clock, because it provides a fixed constant
Huh, you know what? I think you’re right.
Yeah, which makes the points, it’s non trivial to know when to contact people with timezones anyways. The time zone only adds more complexity.
I think the point is that people’s routine isn’t tied to sunrise. For example, in the summertime I start work about 4 hours after sunrise, and in the winter I start work 20mins after sunrise. The difference would actually be more dramatic without daylight savings With timezones and modern internet you don’t need to look up the offset at all, you just look up the current time in that zone and decide if that’s an appropriate time to call. Speaking as someone who deals with timezones a fair bit, both in work and personal life. And as someone who understands the headache of dealing with them in international computer systems, the time zone system is a very nice compromise. Though daylight savings need to die
If your start time has a 4 hour swing, how could you just look up your local time and make a choice to call?
Just add 11 to utc.
No harder than having different times in different places.
Just coordinate via asynchronous communication to schedule a time. It’s not 1935.
You: “hey uncle text me when it would be a good time to have a call”
6 hours later
Uncle: “hey i just got up, lets have a call at 4:50”
You: “thats a bid late for me, im in bed by 4:00, what about 3:30?”
Uncle: “sure sounds great”
No one needed to know anything about when people wake up, where on earth they live, etc.
You already have to Google for what time it is in another part of the world, and Google can also tell you when sunup, solar noon, sundown, and midnight are in Melbourne, so it sounds like you aren’t any worse off without time zones.
If you actually want to know if the sun is up somewhere else, then you want a world clock. At a glance visibility on the current position of the sun for every location on the globe, no time zones necessary.
In one of these stories you used Google and in the other you didn’t. Both of these problems are solveable with Google
We could all just cover our windows, take Vitamin D supplements and actually all live on the UTC timezone.
I lived in a tiny apartment with a streetlamp just outside my only window. Even with blackout curtains that room had no day/night cycle. I’m still trying to get back on a normal day/night cycle, fifteen years later.
So, that’s another method you could try.
You still need to convert in your head to “decide if usually awake at this time”. This solves nothing. Plus what if they’re somewhere unfamiliar on a trip?
Meanwhile stuff like world time buddy or other locations on clocks are very accessible tools
The joke is that the whole world could go to sleep/wake up/work at the exact same time, day or night.
And let the brits enjoy UTC+0 like nothing happened while the rest of the word scrambles to adapt to the new time system? This is tyranny! I demand a new system where my region is the one with UTC+0 instead!
No! In summer time we’d be a whole hour out of our natural time! It would be too much to handle.
Have UTC+0 run horizontally, instead.
And increase its width to run from +80° to -80°.
Squeeze the rest of the timezones into the poles
Google tells me it is currently 4:25am there.
It can also tell you what the waking hours would be with the same amount of effort, no?
And to give another example:
Before abolishing time zones:
“Hey everyone on this global internet forum, we are launching at UTC+3 16:00 today!”
Oh okay. Wait am I UTC or UTC+1 right now? How much would that be?
After abolishing time zones
“Hey everyone on this global internet forum, we are launching at 16:00 today!”
Oh okay, 7 hours from now.
It’s a situation where there are benefits to either option but one probably outweighs the other massively in frequency. I schedule many more international meetings and make many more international calls than the number of times I’ve needed a global event time. And that’s kinda saying something since I’m a space geek that looks for astronomical events, which are all UTC. It’s fewer steps to look up the distant current time and do the math from my current time for a passive event than it is to have everyone be UTC, then look up a distant wake time or business hours, then do math to figure out what the functional time is for something requiring human input.
China is one universal time despite spanning from +5 to +9
Yeah but in your example, you wouldn’t need to look anything up either. You’re presumably very familiar with the offset of your time to their time? You’d also become familiar with their “universal time” versus your time. You’d just know what hours they’d be awake and asleep because you will have done the translation a few times.
In addition, I - personally - would find it easier to memorize times in a single system: e.g. remembering that people in China are awake from 9pm to 8am is easier for me to remember. I typically already do this in my own head. I’ll convert times to my own local time and then memorize that. Do other people not do that? I find it much easier to look at my own clock and know if I can reach out to someone internationally.
I don’t know, I’m not seeing how that’s different. You’re remembering how your clock maps to other countries, I’m remembering UTC offsets. I feel like the main thing I’m actually seeing here is really a DST issue and remembering partial-hour offsets. Neither of those would go away with abolishing time zones
It’s not that different. But you’re mentally mapping a UTC offset to your local time as well? Doesn’t that mean you have to do something like:
- Does this time work for me? (Map offset to my time)
- Does this time work for them? (Map offset to their time)
Genuine question here. Seems like you’re doing twice the time-conversions when using UTC.
If UTC is being used, I’m only converting once. If a time is given in UTC, I only need to convert to my time. If I’m looking for a time at some place (and not just looking it up directly) then I’d combine the absolute values of the offsets before doing a time conversion. I wouldn’t say my 9am is 2pm UTC and 2pm UTC is their 4pm, I’d just do my 9am is their (9+5+2=) 4pm.
Working with time zones makes it easier to keep times in your own perspective. You look up their offset and take a decent guess that their working hours match yours and you’d probably aim for something a little off from your start/end times and safely land towards the middle. To me, that sounds more reliable than hoping to find business hours posted without a distinct, clearly defined geographical divide in which you know the sun is going to shine there.
I suppose that’s where the “simplicity” really comes from in my above points: time zones give you tables of information about times elsewhere, UTC-only requires a map and interpretation. Would places refine their day time shifts narrower than an hour? A minute? A second? Look at the central time zone in the USA. Columbus, Georgia is EST at -5. Ladonia, Alabama is -6 in CST, just across the state border. 1000 miles away, Seminole TX is on the other border of CST and Lovington, New Mexico is across the border in MST at -7. With time zones, the whole region from TX to AL agrees what an 8am start time is, despite effectively being offset by a whole hour, celestially. But solar noon is only at 12 for people in the middle, at the east border of TX, 500 miles between the two city pairs above. So if everyone goes to UTC, how do you know what a place uses as their schedule? Would Marshall, TX, stay at -6 while the GA/AL pair use -5.5 and the TX/NM pair use +6.5? That 8am local start time would become 1pm UTC for Marshall, 1230utc for ga/al, and 130utc for tx/nm pairs. Would Dallas, between Marshall and Seminole, be -5.78 and start the work day at 01:46:48pm utc? Way harder to track. Hence, the railroads gave us time zones
Whether you realise it or not, there are two hours you are using here. Your local time that you suppose is automatically converted in your brain, and the international time that you can already use and is called UTC.
Learn to use UTC, problem solved.
Why do you want to create problems when there is a solution already?
removed
That time means nothing anymore. Time is something real, not a mere number that’s irrelevant to reality. Midday is the middle of the day and the zenith of the sun, or close enough. Midnight is the middle of the night. Etc. It doesn’t need to be exact, but it needs to mean something. In France for example 4PM is the name of the snack you eat that this time.
deleted by creator
Language is also a social construct.
So, let’s put it this way. Let’s say you have this nonsensical idea of a unique timezone for the planet. We’ll base it on UTC for simplicity.
You are in new York. It’s 1000. For you in new York, it’s the middle of night. You’ll wake up in a few hours. Your day usually goes about with wake up and work around 1400, lunch around 1800, end of work around 2200, sleep around 600. You can live you life with that. It’s merely a social construct. It’s completely stupid as a construct because it’s not setup for your actual day. The 0 means absolutely nothing. The 12 and the 24 neither. Why have a 24 hours clock for this? But a decimal clock would do nothing more.
Now you need to work with someone in the UK. Can you talk to him right now? Who knows? You need to ask Internet about the time delay between where you live and where he lives. You learn it’s +6. Or -6. Who cares. Now you juggle with 2 times at your work: your usual one, and your colleague one. Congrats, you made a timezone again. When you need to know when he starts work, you do the maths : 1400-600=800. He must starts at 800, unless there’s some cultural differences.
Now what you call 1800 is called 1200 for him. You made the same concept, the lunch time, have a different name depending on where you live, and that is after the translation.
Why even have a time at this point. It’s more confusing than anything. Let’s just have minutes.
You’ll have wakeup +200 for example. At wakeup +400, it’s midday. Midday +400 is the break. Break+400 is dinner. Dinner +400 is sleepy time. Now that would be much more sensible than your unified clock. There would still be problem with timezones interaction.
But there’s nothing to do about timezones. It’s and effect of the spherical earth and general relativity. In physics, there is a clock for each and every position, and a delay between each. Most of the time it doesn’t matter, so you use your local time. But when it does, you do timezones. Because that’s how the world physically works.
deleted by creator
We already gave up the meaning of time when time zones where implemented. If it’s only going to be an approximation anyway then why bother with the added complexity of 23 extra time zones?
Y’all are just mad that “It’s 5 o’clock somewhere” wouldn’t make sense as a jokey excuse for day-drinking anymore. =3
Timezones exist because that’s how time make sense everywhere.
Je joke works because the earth is a sphere btw. It’s not a joke, it’s a fact. That’s the whole point.
No, timezones don’t make sense everywhere, you clearly have not lived on the edge of timezones where the shift from what would be local time is notable.
Yeah it’s too bad that we can’t have the convenience of both, right?
Hey, wait a minute…
Relevant username
What time zone is that minute in?!
Google tells me people are usually awake at 20:25 there.
Problem solved. This actually makes it problem simpler. With different time zones:
- Get local time.
- Convert to target time.
- Decide if your uncle is usually awake at the target time.
With one time zone:
- Get time.
- Decide if your uncle is usually awake at that time.
Exactly, it always requires knowing your uncles habits.
No shit, so no difference to the current situation.
eh… do you really want to be scheduled to start work at 8am when 8am is mid-afternoon? me neither.
If we had a single time zone, we couldn’t use “am” or “pm”.
These mean ante-meridiem and post-meridiem. So, before midday and after midday. There would be no concept of midday linked to hours that could apply to all locations.
The most apropiate would be talking in 24h format. It wouldn’t bother me if someone said I have to wake up at 13 and finish my job at 21. These are just numbers.
But yeha, it’s still a bad idea because people would have to change calendars constantly because of daylight savings.
yeah I see what you mean. you’d have to replace all 12 hour clocks world-wide though - and then accept that it would take generations for people to adapt. it’d probably never going to happen.
We do, it’s UTC
You have 244 timezones.
Let’s have one timezone for the whole world!
You have 245 timezones.
Humans, generally, like to be awake when the sun is visible and asleep when it isn’t. The way we structure our thinking about time, morning, noon, evening, night, are based on the position of the sun.
The single time zone thing sounds appealing until Germans have to be up at 2 AM to speak with their bosses in NYC as that’s a financial power center and thus gets to dictate the meeting times
The single time zone thing sounds appealing until Germans have to be up at 2 AM to speak with their bosses in NYC as that’s a financial power center and thus gets to dictate the meeting times.
This is how it happens already with international companies, no?
It can be, yes, usually people attempt to be accommodating. I have a regular 8 AM meeting to collaborate with foreign colleagues for which it’s a 4 PM meeting. Neither of us are happy about it, but that’s compromise.
I think a universal timezone would end up exacerbating the issue of some areas deferring to the ideal time of wealthier areas
I see what you’re saying, about the awareness ane consideration of other timezones that having individual ones provides.
That is already the case in multinational companies. The problem of daytime here nighttime there but we need to meet is the same no matter what numbers their respective timepieces say.
Perhaps the answer is to reform the concept of the meeting to exist in a far less useful way. Meetings should be a series of prerecorded messages sent via email and played like a correspondence game of Chess.
This would be incredibly inefficient and annoying and perhaps be a catalyst to finally make the weekly update calls a goddamn email that just reads “nothing to report this week, still on schedule to meet Q2 goals” and I can finally get back to smoking weed and ignoring my work phone until 11 AM (sorry, 0635 Neo Standard Time) when I feel like making someone else more money than I’ll ever own.
