See, Apple? Even cars can do it :)

  • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.

    Ah, so you’re wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?

    Sounds more like a “your government is shit” problem than a “this scheme can’t work” problem.

    It’s not a gov problem, it’s a logistics issue.

    • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nl
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      5 months ago

      Ah, so you’re wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?

      No, that’s just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.

      Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can’t easily mess with it, just like you normally don’t mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home. QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they’ve dispensed.

      We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.

      It’s not a gov problem, it’s a logistics issue.

      1. The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn’t in Backwater USA is no argument.

      2. Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.

      • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        No, that’s just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.

        So each swap station is going to have batteries techs that know what the fuck they’re doing, checking on every battery that comes in?

        Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can’t easily mess with it, just like you normally don’t mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home.

        What world do you live in? People fuck with their houses all the time, its why you get an inspection when you buy a home(even if most inspectors only find the shit on the surface).

        QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they’ve dispensed.

        Again so you’re going to have ever charge station have basically certified battery engineers that can check out battery systems that come in? Are you also planning on forcing the EV makers into standardized battery packs?

        We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.

        Cool, when is the last time you saw an empty beer bottle truck catch fire because roger fucked with his miller lite?

        1. The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn’t in Backwater USA is no argument.

        Ah so only in good ol EU do you guys not have car crashes and house fires because regulation has solved that shit.

        1. Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.

        Cool, whataboutism got it…the real problem you should be talking about is how quickly you can charge a battery and how long it’ll last on said charge…not let’s re-invent the wheel…

    • Revonult@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Gas gets to the gas station somehow. Obviously it isn’t the same as transporting batteries back and forth but it’s bad faith to say this is completely unprecedented logistics problem. I am under the impression that battery health could be screened at the swap facility and would require a small subset to be returned to a hub for additional inspection or repair.

      • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Yea gas is a one way trip, and then it’s into the end customer. It’s not an unprecedented logistics problem, it’s just a logistics problem that ends up requiring a ton of more energy. Batteries need to be able to charge way quicker and hold a longer charge, that’s the problem that should be getting worked, not a how to transport battery packs around.

        • Revonult@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Truck still has to go somewhere. Obviously it’s lighter but it doesn’t blip out of existence. Amazon trucks to back to hub after delivery, FedEx, USPS. Both systems can advance independently and mutually.

        • AA5B@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          And that is being worked on. Billions of dollars has been going there. We have solid state batteries in the lab that can charge much faster and safer, and all sorts of companies promising to bring them to production in a couple of years. Do people really think we’re farther from that being reality than from building out an entirely new global infrastructure that will become obsolete before it’s completed?

          • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            The issue is we haven’t had real breakthroughs in battery tech since the 70s, we’ve gotten slightly better improvements but we’re still using the same base. We’ve had tons of promises in the lab but nothing has actually made it out. Hopefully there will be a breakthrough but so far there hasn’t been.

              • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                They got heavier to hold more charge. Nothing in any of these charts proves the tech has advanced drastically since the 70s. Seriously the 2nd chart just says they got cheaper basically for how much you get. That’s like saying HDDs are cheaper now more than ever, but still use a spinning disk technology… it’s like we never leaped to SSDs. That’s the jump we need.

                • AA5B@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  Did you notice the charts showing Wh/kg? Since 1991, the charge a battery can hold per weight has gone up 500%, even while prices have dropped a similar percentage. That’s huge, and that’s what makes EVs (and even smartphones) so practical now, but not back then. We have made that jump

                  • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                    5 months ago

                    Yes it’s still not enough, that’s been my whole point, all we’ve done is like if SSDs were never invented. Like we’re still stuck on spinning disk tech. We’re still lacking the charge speed and the range. Yes batteries are better than 1970s when the current design was created, but we haven’t made that jump from HDD to SSD.

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        To me, this is the biggest argument against battery swapping.

        We have this huge industry for refining, storing, distributing, distributing ending gasoline that we can entirely dismantle with EVs. All that pollution: gone. All that wasted land: gone. All those unnecessary levels of profit-seeking: gone. Now you want to choose a technology that requires rebuilding all that, except two way? You want to force the new technology to conform to old infrastructure ideas?

        How can we not prefer the alternative of “just plug it in wherever you are”? How can we not prefer the rare opportunity of simplifying something? How can we not forgo all those unnecessary profit seekers?

        • Revonult@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          At the moment my two biggest fears against buying an EV is it catching fire in my garage and it dying after 5 years then having to buy a 30k battery. Once technology advances that doesn’t happen I will buy and I would love your plan. Why can’t this be a stop gap?

          • AA5B@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            It already doesn’t happen.

            • while there have been fires and they do burn hot and self oxidize, it’s more rare than for ICE cars and usually caused by physical damage.
            • my EV battery is warranted for 8 years, 100k miles, and some are higher
            • my Tesla battery could be replaced for $15k, and it’s been decreasing over time, so half what you fear
            • batteries usually don’t just die: end of life is usually set at 70% health, meaning you can keep using it with reduced range

            Swappable batteries can’t be a stop gap because it would require a huge infrastructure buildout over many years that would become a lost investment, versus technology that’s already here and improving every year. Starting from scratch with swap stations, vehicle design, industry standards, vs hundreds of thousands of charging stations already deployed.

            If you think chargers aren’t available enough or expanding enough, consider that they’re known technology, relatively cheap, installable by any electrician, using a national power infrastructure that already exists. Installing a level 2 charger at my house was equivalent to a new stove circuit. I mean I agree we need to speed up the buildout, but think how cheap and easy these are compared to developing an entire new infrastructure from scratch. How simple a ”plug” is compared to a robot that can handle a one ton battery. How long it took to standardize an effing plug, compared to standardizing entire battery packs. How can anyone think this would go faster?