I’m going to get all sorts of fun responses for trying to empathize with those with whom I disagree (instead of just writing “dumb bigots”) but here goes:
First, remember that even gay marriage is fairly new to America, it’s been around for less time than the MCU.
There are a lot of folks who almost have mental whiplash, gay marriage went from illegal to “you could get fired for being vocally uncomfortable about it” in fairly quick order.
Now, to make things even more wild for those folks, mainstream culture is pretty insistent that gender isn’t even a thing anymore. Add in some pretty wild news stories/videos*, worries for their kids and the notion that the Left refuses to say there might be any issues whatsoever and you can kinda see where a backlash could crop up.
- eg: trans women being reassigned to women’s prisons and then assaulting the women etc, a 6"2, 220lb woman practically murdering her handball oppoisition, some fairly sketchy research practices by some of the authorities (WPATH) on the subject etc.
mainstream culture
Talk to any random person on the street and they don’t fucking care about identity politics.
Extremists are not the mainstream no matter how much they shout about it.
No, most people aren’t going out of their way to hurt trans people, but those loud extremists are creating a negative connotation in some people’s minds. That’s no different from racism.
Extremists on both sides are a problem, so when you say “those loud extremists” a reasonable person would have no idea who you’re talking about. I think you’re correct in either instance, but I doubt that’s what you where going for.
Oh. My bad. I thought a reasonable person would assume I meant the loud extremists that match the topic of this post.
There’s a reason conservatives campaign against “woke.” And most conservatives I know socially called the election a win against woke, even if they couldn’t exactly name a woke policy that Harris proposed.
Harris explicitly didn’t play identity politics, and I applaud her for it. I think the left is starting to realise even people who agree with them dislike being told what to think … one can dream right.
I like your dream and fully agree on Harris.
Sadly (though I am admittedly a pessimist and would love to be wrong) I think the Left elites/party brass are coming to that realization on identity politics. But I dont think mainstream/cultural Left is and unfortunately, I think Right and centre Right curious voters view the political and cultural Left as the same.
Can we compromise? No trans people in sports and trans people have their own unique prison or cell block and young teens can take puberty blockers and estrogen so they don’t need to try to pay 150,000 in facial feminization plastic surgery at 18 or 19, money of which they can only get quickly from sex work and not going to school? Sound like a good compromise?
You were doing reasonably well, until you diverted to pure transphobia in the last paragraph
The listing of the news/videos they may have seen?
Not the list, but the way you described them, as if these were things that actually happen…
This is part of the thing. If we on the Left can’t have an honest discussion about things that do happen, then it is incredibly hard for anyone not already “on side” to take us seriously.
trans women being reassigned to women’s prisons and then assaulting the women etc https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/09/26/americas-growing-row-over-policies-for-transgender-prisoners “Tremaine Carroll, a transferred inmate serving 25 years to life for violent crimes, was charged with raping two women in ccwf and faces trial soon; Carroll denies the charges. In 2022 an inmate moved to Rikers Island women’s prison in New York received a seven-year sentence for attempted rape.”
This is a tricky issue, trans women in men’s prisons are also at risk. But to straight up deny these things happen and deny the existence of non transphobic concerns, well, that’s hard to take seriously.
a 6"2, 220lb woman practically murdering her handball oppoisition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SJYdXj7Kac&ab_channel=WilsonB9000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Mouncey
Murder was hyperbole, probably inappropriate. But damn, she is just so much bigger than her entire team and everyone on the opposition in all of those clips. (She also dominates in Aussie rules football.)
some fairly sketchy research practices by some of the authorities (WPATH) on the subject https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/06/27/research-into-trans-medicine-has-been-manipulated
The whole article is discomforting and worth reading. But, while WPATH (what is supposed to, and claims to be and independent science based organization) was creating their guidelines: “But an email in October 2020 from WPATH figures, including its incoming president at the time, Walter Bouman, to the working group on guidelines, made clear what sort of science WPATH did (and did not) want published. Research must be “thoroughly scrutinised and reviewed to ensure that publication does not negatively affect the provision of transgender health care in the broadest sense,” it stated. Mr Bouman and one other coauthor of that email have been named to a World Health Organisation advisory board tasked with developing best practices for transgender medicine.”
Again, I’m generally on board with trans rights etc but to say there aren’t issues just makes it that much harder to take us at face value.
This is a tricky issue, trans women in men’s prisons are also at risk
“Also at risk”
The fact that you equate cherry picked single instance anecdotes as comparable to entrenched violence and discrimination against trans folk as being somehow comparable is the part that makes it transphobia.
Murder was hyperbole
It was, yeah. Despite her “murdering” the opposition, from the very article you linked, Australia finished 5th.
There are 7 players on a handball team. She scored 23 goals across 6 games, for an average of just under 4 goals per game (3.83 to be specific).
The total goals scored by Australia in those games was 160, which works out to an average of 3.81 per Australian player across those 6 games. Her “murdering” of her opponents consisted of having a 0.02% higher average than her team mates.
The fact that you parrot lines like “murdering” and look at videos designed to make it look open and shut, whilst not bothering to investigate the reality of the situation is what makes it transphobic.
The whole article is discomforting and worth reading. But, while WPATH (what is supposed to, and claims to be and independent science based organization) was creating their guidelines:
An article posted on the economist, who has Helen Joyce, a vocally transphobic journalist as one of their senior staff. Linking to an article that has been mostly circulated on various transphobic websites, calling out WPATH for being biased and getting in the way of evidence based research? Whilst defending the Cass review, which has been widely called out by many international medical bodies for its own bias and inconsistent approach to evidence.
The fact that you’re worried about WPATH as the real issue here is telling…
You are misunderstanding.
Most reasonable, casual folks, who aren’t up on who Helen Joyce is or other trans poli sco lore, these are all fairly reasonable takes. The Economist is generally regarded as one of the most reputable papers around and for good reason.
I’ve also not presented my beliefs, just “here’s some pretty mainstream concerns.” I made that pretty clear in my opening statement (and pointed out that pretty much this exactly would happen.)
You’ve clearly encountered these arguments before (definitely didn’t watch the video which is fucking sympathetic). I’m not making these arguments.
I’m saying that reasonable people, who read one of the most reputable papers in the world can in fact have reservations on some trans issues. I can disagree with them but it’s not just bigotry.
Yes, they’re designed to seem that way.
Which is why I earlier stated that my issue wasn’t with listing them, but specifically, the way you presented them.
I’ve also not presented my beliefs
You used the word “murdering” to describe a transgender woman playing sports with other women, despite her playing at a level comparable to them.
You absolutely presented your beliefs.
U are literally denying objective reality at best it weakens ur arguments at worse it makes u look like a grifter.
Bruh check out the guys post history, read their comment history, they arent exactly a trans ally
I don’t recall posting about trans anything, can you refresh my memory?
Edit: Oh, it’s you! Are you making this assumption because I disagree with you and condemn the advocating of violence on republicans and democrats?!?
Which I don’t get because they’re all about rape as a jail punishment
This aligns with what I have heard from folks I know in that world. Fear motivated by exaggerating one off and isolated incidents. The information silos in the conservative world (especially news) is frightening.
Cause they were told to.
In my experience and speaking with transphobes I think it’s caused by our current culture of trying to force people to accept them.
Most people in my experience are happy not knowing or ignoring signs that someone is trans or gay. However when you start bringing it up in casual conversation or being overtly flamboyant for lack of a better term people start giving push back on it. I would compare it to the vegan stereotype. No one cares you’re vegan but when you constantly bring it up or try to make every conversation about you being vegan people get annoyed.
We as a society need to accept that racists and transphobes won’t change. You can’t force them to accept anything.
Religion.
There are plenty of atheist transphobes.
Oh god they’re the worst. Their “XY genes is science” crap would fly a lot better if they bothered to learn anything about genetics that went beyond fucking Punnett Squares.
Of course, there is that one high profile atheist who did learn a bunch of Biology, then decided to ditch it because it was incompatible with being the disagreeable fuckwit that he so longed to be.
Richard Dawkins is a huge bin bag full of arses.
They exist, but let’s not act like religion isn’t playing a huge role in the perpetuation of trans hate. If a person says that they dislike trans people, 9/10 times they are going to be religious. A lot of other cases will stem from a person coming from a religious family, or culture, if they aren’t religious themselves.
It’s not a requirement to hate gay and trans people to be an atheist, but it is a requirement to at least act like you do to be a member of many different religious denominations.
I would say that religious institutions allow the congregation of people and thus a congregation of thought into similar things as one another, not that religion as a whole is transphobic or something. Ain’t no need to use the same kinda bigotry you hate to justify saying something so wildly vague as to be useless. Use some more nuanced and complex thoughts please.
Far simpler than whateveryone else is saying. The best way to rally humans to your side is to give them a common enemy. So conservative politicians picked enemies that are small in number and told everyone how they are to blame for all that is wrong in the world.
Times are hard? Our existing economic systems are perfect. It’s [insert minority here] who caused this. Quick, give me all the power so I can stop them.
They’re going to use the bathroom and play sports. KILL THEM ALL!
It seems that way because the minority of people who are against trans people are very loud and obnoxious, and their voices are heavily amplified by sites like Facebook and Twitter.
If I remember correctly uvalde was a trans person, but most of the time its just people using one good thing about themselves to justify being horrible. Think holier-than-thou type shit.
Uvalde shooter was not. https://www.bbc.com/news/61607042
The NYPost has an article about the Nashville shooter. Before she went through with the shooting she texted an old friend about it. The friend got interviewed and for whatever reason the NYPost used a Facebook picture of her all glammed up. It’s really out of place.
It was Nashville, not Uvalde.
Off topic but it’s quite fucked that there are so many of these that we mix them up ooof
You are parroting a lie
edit hey dumbasses, you can look it up for yourselves, the uvalde shooter was not trans and there was never anything real even suggesting that he was
Damn if only I acknowledged somehow that my memory was imperfect and I may be wrong, maybe by saying smth like “if I remember correctly”.
well it’s kind of your responsibility to fact check that kind of thing before repeating it, no? regardless you’re not the one I called a dumbass, it was the clowns downvoting me for stating a fact.
Were I presenting it as a definite fact yes, but I was presenting it as a possible thing that I was pretty sure had happened. Also, I know you weren’t talking about me with the edit I didn’t even look at it while typing my reply.
Edit: misspelled were as we’re, fixed it
They just got the exact shooting wrong, which can happen with the sheer amount of school shootings in the US.
You all are overthinking it way too much.
Most people hate anything that’s different or uncommon to themselves and their “world”.
Simple as that.
It’s heterophobia in the semantic sense of the word “fear of anything that’s different”.
Xenophobia
I always thought that xenos was more refering to people from outside, like physically from a different place.
But I really know nothing about words, greek, latin or whatever. So it will probably be a better choice of words.
That’s heresy.
Sigh, I’ll get the holy promethium…
“other; different in origin.” is the meaning of xeno.
So… it kinda fits, it kinda doesn’t.
As someone who grew up in a conservative household in a deep red state, I think that part of it is that a lot of people are letting Lizard Brain dictate their response to transgender people.
Let me give you a personal example. A while back, I went to a social dance, and there was a trans woman there. Before the dance starts proper, the couple that runs it will teach a dance lesson, and we rotate partners while that’s going on. Eventually, I was rotated into being her partner. For some background, she was obviously early on in her transition; she still looked like a dude in a dress, she didn’t quite have the appearance down yet. But she gets huge props for not only having the bravery to go out as herself, but doing it in fucking Arkansas.
So I rotate over to her, and it dawns on me that she’s trans. In my head, Lizard Brain immediately starts screaming. “WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?! THIS PERSON IS OBVIOUSLY A DUDE IN A DRESS, HE MUST BE UP TO SOMETHING IF HE’S DRESSING AS SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HE IS! RABBLERABBLERABBLERABBLERABBLE”
Keep in mind, where I grew up, you just didn’t see trans people, and even now, it still tickles that primal part of my brain that was trained to be uncomfortable around people who aren’t white and straight.
The difference between me and many of the people I grew up around is that I recognize that it’s happening and try to tone Lizard Brain out when it starts screaming. A lot of other people listen to it and don’t care that the person that it’s screaming about is exactly that: a person.
I remember reading that when people have racist reactions like what you’re describing it’s like a different part of their brain triggers and then their frontal lobe (for higher logic) sort of suppresses it. I really wish I could remember more about this but I definitely remember learning about this in psychology. Something like when a baby sees someone of a skin color they haven’t seen before they get nervous, but when they’re older different parts shut it down. The memory is very fuzzy.
What happened next? How was the dance? Don’t leave us hanging!
This is so real. It takes a LOT of effort and time to train this out. If someone isn’t willing to go through that then it makes sense that it would fester.
I had lots of times when i was younger learning about queer culture when i got mad at things. Especially after an overly polite and patient person took the time and effort to explain something to me. Unlearning hate is painful. Learning to liberate yourself is painful.
I think a lot of people feel that pain and decide to run from it and double down on the hate because that way they don’t need to learn and change or pry open their mind to an alternative.
Then there’s the whole fear of conflicting with your own community as a factor.
Would you mind sharing what that person explained to you?
A brave, vulnerably nuanced answer. Suspicious… what are you planning?
Excellently said!
The only thing I have an issue with, and it’s a small issue at that, is:
Keep in mind, where I grew up, you just didn’t see trans people,
You most assuredly did see them. You just didn’t realize it because they were forced to hide who they really were.
some schmucks want to exploit the very basic fear of the unfamiliar, and they pointed it at trans folk to get votes or whatever.
It’s who their owners say to hate, so they hate them. Could be anyone and for no or any reason. They’re cultists and they do, say, hate, and fear who they’re told to.
What?
Uneducated people in rural areas struggle very much with understanding their experiences of others, and have very strange ideas about how the world works. I told my grandmother I wanted to move to Chicago - she’s convinced I’m going to get gang murdered. (She would be horrified if I told her about wandering around LA on foot)
The idea that there are options other than cisgender heterosexual people is threatening to their understanding of their world. Many have not thought about their gender or sexuality; it’s assumed that you’ll get married to the opposite sex, get gender appropriate jobs, have kids, and go to church on Sunday. That’s what life is in Anadarko or Siloam Springs. Many also struggle with unaddressed trauma from the opioid/fent crisis, or military service - so they think the appropriate response to anguish about your body should just be to just cope with it.
Many of these men are secretly bisexual. Many, many, many heterosexually married men seek out sexual encounters with gay men on the side. They would never want to be in a relationship with a man or someone they perceived as a strange, mentally defective man - for many of them that would also assault their understandings of a relationship as more of a property thing. They feel guilty about porn usage, especially the Christian ones, but externalize it as hatred.
The woman are miserable and are committed to making everyone else miserable as well. You gain power in those communities by policing others, especially young women. They are threatened by the idea that they weren’t locked into compulsive heterosexuality and performative femininity. There was a possibility that they could have graduated college, or not had children.
They get the program though. They’re proper Puritans. If life is suffering then the only joy to be had is in watching other people. And what better target than those who are defying our most basic sociological roles? These are the same people who host gender reveal parties - it matters to them. So it must matter to everyone else.
That’s my guess as a trans man at least, obviously I’m biased.
Nazis do this dumb thing where they go “hey that small and therefore relatively defenseless group (badassness of individuals aside) is the cause of all our problems, let’s kill them to solve everything!”
Surprisingly, it never works.
So they do it again with somebody else, and somebody else, and somebody else, until everybody on earth is killed by nazis or somebody stops them.
As for why anybody is dumb enough to fall for it in the first place…it’s anybody’s guess.
Surprisingly, it never works.
The Holocaust happened and Trump got elected. If those two things don’t count as examples of this hateful strategy working then idk what does.
I think they meant it doesn’t solve any problems because they never were the problem.
They’re a convenient political target because it makes insecure men not want to be associated with them. Believe it or not, a similar thing happened last time Republicans won the popular vote in 2004 - back then the issue was gay marriage. Bush went hard on opposing that and it helped him win.
