https://lemmy.nz/post/18610200/13255360
This user describes how most of the women-centered communities on Lemmy were shut down due to harassment of their members.
Another user adds “We need a safe space, but most of the women I know on here don’t have the time or energy to moderate it. And there’s so few of us, it feels like it’s not worth the effort anyway.”
In Mastodon, this is typically solved with defederation, block lists, and admins enforcing mod policies. How come this approach doesn’t work for Lemmy? Is it not decentralized enough?
Yes. Just look at .world. As long as world is still federated into other communities, the fediverse is not federated.
it’s not decentralized enough is exactly the answer. lemmy.world holds a huge portion of users and communities despite having middling at best moderation. illustrating this, one of my favorite communities (196) just recently tried to force everyone to migrate to .world. fortunately, the community at large openly rejected that absurd move, but it definitely exemplified the centralizing forces at play.
It seems to be one of the problems where Lemmy feeling a bit like old Reddit is really, really bad. Remembering from back then, it took many years of concerted effort and dedicated subreddits attacking sexism (that were in turn harassed and hated on by the “mainstream” Reddit audience, like SRS for example) to slowly change the culture. And it’s not like Reddit is some sort of safe haven even now.
So, something like Hexbear’s the_dunk_tank, but against bigotry? Not sure any of the admins on the Fediverse would allow a community like that. Everyone in charge here seems very anti-drama, which is another word for pro-status-quo
I do agree that the reports and downvotes of topics geared toward women are very widespread which is exhausting, and can make it hard to talk about the things you want to. Most of the virulent, misogynistic comments get removed quickly but often the damage is already done by then. I have learned over the years on the internet that sometimes I should let womens’, trans’ and other races’ people’s spaces be their spaces, and check carefully if whatever I have to say really adds to the conversation or just minimizes/drowns out the opinions of the minority audience the community is for. So I have had the urge to participate but have backed off. I’m a bit torn because the lack of activity can also make a community feel unwelcoming, but I am concerned that even my most well-intentioned comments could have a blind spot or inherent bias that makes it also unwelcoming.
The solution I see is that a woman safe-space instance is needed, whose admins ban misogony, unhelpful comments and reports, mass downvoting etc., to the point where some might feel the actions are like PTB. Beehaw has a strict moderation stance, they even defedded from lemmy.world due to the amount of toxicity they had to deal with, but they are able to curate a more welcoming experience. We are still “early days of Reddit”, it will take time and effort from users of all genders to make it a better place.
relevant discussions:
- [email protected] true colors: https://lemmy.cafe/post/10574267
- incredible find: https://lemmy.cafe/post/10217719
- epic ratio: https://lemmy.cafe/post/9597634
- lemmy is a worse platform for women than reddit was: https://lemmy.cafe/post/4821164
this issue of such a massive proportion can only be solved with intention—it’s not getting fixed by accident. recognizing the problem is the first step.
Oh God I remember seeing that “incredible find” comment in the wild and being like, “What the fuck? Who thinks like that?”
and the number of upvotes 🤮 there is so much work to do and so many awful people out there
All I get is “unable to connect”
Ironic
Hard agree about it being worse then Reddit. It’s gotten to the point where I don’t engage as much as I want to and thinking about going back to Reddit. I’m sure there are people that would like that.
I’m not quiet about being a woman, but have yet to receive dms or inappropriate responses or dismissals due to that fact (via lemmy).
EDIT: although elsewhere in this post’s comment section I just received such a dismissal by someone who thought I was a man. Indeed, this is the direction in gender space along which I am used to experiencing such behavior, and it is why I have chosen to emphasize the fact that I am a female with a vagina so much in recent years: to get women to stop harassing me.
So I’ll shout it out here: I’m a woman, if anyone has a problem with that or just wants to talk about it, please reach out.
I want to help solve the problem but I need to see it better first. I only ever see cherry-picked examples like you have collected here instead of seeing it in the wild. Don’t get me wrong, the cherry-picked examples are bad, but I need more than a handful of outliers to really understand the problem and where it comes from before I can understand what I can do to help.
these aren’t cherry picked? these are quite normal—that’s why i started collecting them because they were so easy to find.
i respect your expression of experience of not having been on the receiving end of this that much—i will thank you to respect mine!
I do want to respect your experience and help to address the root problems leading to it.
That’s why I am asking and engaging in this conversation: to be better informed and to help others subvert hate in this hate-filled time.
I’m also an odd case, as an intersex person who was socially raised (predominantly) male but in recent years transitioned to female mostly to avoid harassment. I get so much less hate when I’m perceived as a woman that your experience is somewhat foreign to me. Whether presenting as a man or as a woman, I get hate overwhelmingly from women. Women in our society are hate-filled and angry and don’t know how to process emotions like discomfort caused by their intersexphobia nearly as well as men do.
A curated collection of the worst examples meets the definition of cherry picking. Cherry picking doesn’t mean that your argument is invalid, just that there is missing context from the rest of the distribution of interactions. Any sufficiently large community will have enough assholes that bad behavior can be cherry picked from the extreme end of the distribution to be used as examples if someone wants to paint the whole community in a bad light.
That said, the extreme and cherry-picked examples are still a problem that need to be taken seriously. My life is an extreme and cherry-picked example that runs counter to the common narrative from “feminists” who think that blocking and ostracizing dissenting voices is a solution, instead of recognizing that reaction as exclusive and anti-diversity. I understand that extreme/unusual or cherry-picked examples need to be taken seriously and considered as edge cases. I am not trying to dismiss you, although my word choice last night maybe could have been more explicit on this point. I’m sorry. What I’m trying to communicate is that I need to better understand the problem (in context) to be able to help be part of the solution.
We need a better solution, and I want to help work towards that. I believe that starts with discussions like this one.
Yeah okay thanks i guess it just comes off really not nice for you to say that.
if you posted a list of the worst incidents in your experience of abuse, i truly doubt you would love my response to be calling you a cherry picker. even if you don’t mean it, it looks like siding with the abuser. it’s NOT cherry picking to tell my literal own damn story of what i deal with. if you truly mean differently, maybe choose different words
Any list of my experiences of abuse is a fundamentally cherry-picked list because my experiences are so far outside (what feminists claim to be) the norm.
I am explicitly calling myself a cherry picker and would have no problem with you doing the same. Everyone else sees my problems that way. It’s just the truth.
I mean what I said.
EDIT: and to be clear, that includes my statement that even cherry-picked examples need to be taken seriously, however within proper context. I see that you’ve already downvoted me and probably moved on. I’m taking your lived experiences seriously, and you aren’t taking mine seriously. I hope you will reconsider if you actually want to solve the root of the problems that we both are experiencing.
This situation seems to have spiraled a bit—I logged off for a few hours and came back to a bunch of DMs from you.
I want to make it clear that I don’t have any hard feelings toward you. However, this conversation has reached a point where it’s no longer productive.
You wouldn’t go to the comments of a person of color as they share their experiences and feelings about racism and say, “I only ever see cherry-picked examples like you have here.” But that’s essentially what you said to me about gender-based abuse. That kind of comment is: a) dismissive and encourages others to doubt the stories of victims, and b) a conversation-ender.
What you communicated to me is that my lived experience isn’t enough for you. As someone with a normal life and not a researcher, I have no way to provide the additional “data” you seem to require.
Ok, since you brought up my two short DMs, I’ll post them here for public consumption.
I am very much trying to continue the conversation that you started about experiences of gender-based abuse by adding variety of experience from a very different perspective that contrast with the cherry-picked list that you provided of things you read online that resonated with your preconceptions. My examples are cherry-picked from my life; yours are cherry-picked from lemmy.
I am repeatedly echoing the sentiment of your original post: that we need to talk about and understand these things if we want to learn and grow. It’s how humans share data.
You claim that I am being dismissive only because the cherry picked examples from my life experience come from an opposite tail of the distribution of gender-based abuse as your list. I can’t help where my life experiences lie on this distribution, but I can share them (as you did) to provide some additional data that helps to fill out the range of the population.
You are dismissing me by saying that my experiences must be shared in bad faith to be dismissive/encourage doubt/end conversations. Please re-read my words. They are trying to communicate that I DESPERATELY want a conversation on this topic so that we can all learn and grow from each others’ experiences. Just because my experiences are different from yours does not make them bad-faith.
From your behavior, I’m starting to suspect that this is projection and that you are a bad-faith troll who refuses to engage with others if they have different life experiences. However, I don’t believe that yet because you and I have had several other conversations in various other comments sections over the past year which have been good and productive and I have grown to like you.
I want a productive conversation on this topic, yet you only seem to want to dismiss my perspective. This runs contrary to our past interactions. Please, I’m trying to have a productive conversation.
That said, the examples you give aren’t your personal lived experience as much as extreme examples of sexism that you’ve stumbled across on this site and curated. The examples that I’m giving are genuine and personal lived experience as a gender minority (neither male or female) rather than things I read online. I don’t think that that makes one set of examples more valid than the other, just that these fact make your most recent comment seem highly hypocritical. You are replying to a minority trying to share their experiences and feelings by dismissing me, encouraging others to doubt me, and ending the conversation without engaging with our differences of life experience. Then you accuse me of doing that instead of actually engaging with my perspective. Please reconsider. I’ll end this here, but if you want to have an honest and genuine discussion about how to solve the issue of gender-based abuse that you brought up, my DMs are always open.
I am a male with a penis but it is a very feminine penis and I stand in solidarity with your vagina. In fact,. Ny.penis’ name is Cassandra, which is neither here nor there but it is indeed a fact.
Being serious for a moment though: I agree with your rational approach here. I have found Lemmy to be more hostile than reddit overall, and while I condemn hostility based on gender or race (I very much applaud hostility based on religion though) I think we NEED THIS SO FUCKING BADLY.
The entire internet has become a bland cesspool of meaningless garbage. I think the current state of things has proven that what inevitably begins as a laudable attempt to stomp out hhate speech (which I condemn) the window invariably gets wider and wider until meaningful dialogue is silenced.
We should be very fucking hostile towards Nazis. We should be hostile towards avaricious governments and unchecked human greed. We should be hostile towards proselytization, and anyone that cant understand that freedom FROM religion is as, or more important than, freedom OF religion. And while I can see the need to ban outright calls for violence as being necessary, the ubiquity of iron-clad moderation makes me very concerned about what will happen when there is a legitimate need to react against violent acts from entrenched power systems towards the oppressed.
While the comments here about “go make your own instance” are dismissive, I do agree with then in spirit. I want to participate in communities that eschew group think and promote real dialoguue. Especially dialogue I don’t agree with.
The power of the fediverse is that if someone wants to copy the bland corporate safe space that is the rest of the internet there is fuck all stopping them.
I had much more toxic behavior at reddit, but it is hard to imagine any safe space online anywhere.
it definitely depends where you go on all platforms. blahaj zone is good, world is bad. places moderated by mods with actual experience are generally good, places moderated by jordanlund and similar get pretty toxic pretty fast. :(
Tbf, i wouldn’t recommend Lemmy to anyone i know either for more reasons including this
Examples please?
Thanks for the enlightening thread. And that puts a dampener on the enthusiasm that I was feeling for this place. Not that I should be surprised or anything.
I might misunderstand how things work here but it sounds to me like if entire communities are getting bombed by downvotes, then it’s the various admins across instances that are allowing this to happen. And it puts a bit of a dark cloud over this place now for me.
Blahaj.zone has disabled downvotes, so at least that part can’t be weaponised against folk on our instance.
As for the rest of it, yeah, lemmy is better than reddit, but it did get a lot of users from reddit, so its still closer to reddit culture than I’d like. But, it’s also got a lot of better aspects than reddit ever did, and hopefully that trend will continue
I think it would be interesting to see how the experience of women pans out by instance. I can imagine it being a fundamentally different experience on blahaj or beehaw, when compared to more generalist instances like .world
Which is a problem, IMO. Maybe the solution is to have a women focused instance and I would be all for it. But also, that’s a little bit like India having a women only train because the men are too rapey on other trains. It allows safe passage for women for now but doesn’t actually fix or address the problem of rapey men.
One of our admins was banning people if they saw you only downvoting. This place is so much better than reddit, that growing pains are fine with me.
Hello the based dept called they want to speak to that admin
Another issue that’s starting to pop up in “inclusive” communities that don’t have active enough mods and admins is users had to start policing their own spaces, and then the admins get upset with the vitriol directed at the trolls and force the community to repsect the trolls and wait until the reports eventually get through.
come up with new drama dude this is so tired
No u
Fuck off with your targeted bullshit drama.
Not only are so you juvenile as to to bring it up in this context, you’re clearly more interested in being a passive aggressive little bitch about the thing or you would never have seen this post in the first place after you blocked OP like a responsible adult.
Removed by mod
Yap yap yap says the barking dog, desperate for attention and not self-enacted solutions.
Is there anything others can do to help? Feddit.uk wouldn’t tolerate this but I’m not sure what a regular user can do apart from look out for harassment, call it out and report promptly
wait, what? we have women in here? where?
I do get the joke; Even so, to this post’s credit, that this comment [at time of writing] is +3 is a great representation of their challenges.
The whole point is about people feeling legitimate using the platform. Jokes feeding on the trope “there aren’t women on the Internet” reinforces alienation. It makes sense they wouldn’t feel comfortable if dismissal is the community upvoted response to them -already- feeling unwelcome.
I really don’t see how upvoting a silly joke is a representation of anything.
It was solely meant for some giggles, to relax the conversation about a serious topic a slight bit. If you will, it’s more like karma whoring [no pun intended].
Understandable! Apologies if I came across overly chastising towards you specifically.
Instent vs impact is pretty hard in this case. Part of my response is from conversations with friends in STEM fields and the impacts of the male centric nature of the space (comp sci especially) has on them. Especially with how much men self-reinforce that position. It truly is an exclusionary space for them.
I hadn’t read as many comments in this thread yet and there are some well thought out discussions here too, which I’m glad to read.
There’s nothing to apologize for, really, you weren’t harsh and certainly not towards me specifically. You even acknowledged the joke, and just stated your opinion, which I simply don’t fully agree with.
I can’t remotely relate to the struggles some women have to go through in male-dominated fields.
I’m a software developer myself, by passion, and I have had some female coworkers with whom I had been designated on projects. And TBH, it never occurred to me to treat them any differently than male coworkers. Also, as far as I could tell, none of the other male coworkes treated them differently either.
So, just because there are some men out there acting like a douchebag by giving women a hard time to feel included in a field, doesn’t mean the world is full of these people. They’re simply more conspicuous, than the others.
Now, is this a cultural thing, that depends on the country one lives in? Or does it depend on the size of the company one works for? Maybe, I don’t know! I’m not a researcher/psychologist to provide any meaningful insight into this issue, since I neither can’t relate on a personal level, nor have I witnessed it.
All I can do, is either just continue scrolling, or, if I’m in the mood, post some silly joke to (hopefully) make at least one person giggle while reading through the comments.
PS: I really like the richness in your vocabulary.
And this I why I don’t either
It’s especially jarring coming from Mastodon, which is broadly more diverse than Lemmy. I’ve witnessed some really questionable comments here during the last year. I really hope something can be done to improve things. I think a feminist-specific instance might be the best option, much in the way someplace like Hexbear has managed to create a fairly strong community bloc with strong core beliefs.
I don’t think creating more echo chambers is the right thing to do tbh
Echo chambers of…gender equality?
Not exactly the point. Spaces reserved for a specific community of people alone tend to be breeding grounds for extremist viewpoints and toxicity
Not sure you can call half the population a ‘community’ but OK. Women come from all walks of life and ideologies as I’m sure you’ll have to imagine.
Also, even in the majority of women-centric spaces in the internet, men are still allowed s long as they aren’t assholes. The only purpose would be to make a specific spot where women can post without fear of being harassed.
If you’ve participated in any women-centric sub on Reddit you’ll know what I’m talking about. Try r/Askwomen, r/FemaleDatingStrategy or r/feminism. The toxicity on those subs is over the roof.
Something similar might happen if women-centric instances (not even communities) are created. Kinda like a hexbear-esque situation.
I have for years and haven’t seen any of the toxicity you’re talking about, except towards men showing up being right cunts. I’m guessing that’s how you encountered it, too.
Nope, there’s toxicity there and it’s widely complained about on Reddit (including women themselves) - especially concerning the first two subs i mentioned. Have you considered you’re one of the toxic participants?
Sadly hexbear doesn’t have a ton of really active comms specific to women. Though at least they’re very aggressive removing misogyny across the instance. It’s been categorically less stressful posting on hexbear vs the rest of lemmy simply because I’m not then checking an inbox with replies/dms calling me ‘removed’ or ‘it’ or other charming insults.
Removing downvotes makes sense too, though I also like keeping them and using them to ban people abusing it. The voter is only visible to admins though.
Hexbear might be safe for binary women, but as far as drag can tell, they’re still sexist against a few million other gender identities. Drag went to Hexbear and searched for discussions about dragself pronouns. It wasn’t good.
The one that I saw was positive, and if there was some negativity, it was far less than posters over on sjw and .world.
I wasn’t able to find posts drag is referring to, as near as I can tell both instances drag uses defed hexbear. Feel free to send me a link.
I would moderate it :(
You don’t need to ask anyone’s permission to create a Lemmy community.
Yup, that’s a problem. Specially because, once the gender ratio gets too skewed towards one side (it is), the Petrie multiplier kicks in; then the sexism targets each woman more and more frequently.
Potential solutions that I see for the problem:
- Perhaps creating a few instances for women? I don’t mean instances to talk only about feminism, but for general stuff. With higher standards against harassment.
- Better mod policing against harassment. Collective action, so it’s easy to say and hard to do it, I know.
The admins could try banning sexist men, but that’ll never happen
I think that it would be a good start. But only a start; sexism is a social problem, so even if you ban the individuals saying sexist stuff, you still see sexism elsewhere.
And even if you ban overtly sexist users, others will keep:
- focusing on topics typically enjoyed by men, and typically disliked by women;
- interpreting what each other says based on masculine social norms;
- assuming that they’re dealing with other men unless explicitly told otherwise;
etc.
That’s still aggravating, you know? You can’t pinpoint why but it still makes you feel unwelcome.
The admins of what? There is no singular “admins” of the Fediverse. That’s kind of the whole point.
I understood “the admins” as “a meaningfully large amount of the admin teams of the Fediverse”. Collective action.
I still don’t read it that way, but assuming it is, that is still unreasonable. There are simply too many differing viewpoints, by design. The best option for this sort of thing is to start a female focused instance. It won’t be able to affect the wider fediverse directly, but it would be able provide the space that is seemingly absent atm.
There are simply too many differing viewpoints, by design
The instances which support women don’t have to federate with the instances whose viewpoint is that harassing women is fine.
Maybe they should, but it’s not going to be a black and white issue for most admins. There’s a reason instances like blahaj and yiffit exist. A space like that for women would be the most realistic way to get the protections for female users in the fediverse that you’re saying should exist.
If I’m reading it right, I also disagree with it, on a practical level; it’s like herding cats and not enough. I also think that an instance for women is the way to go, at least at the start.
However, to be fair with drag those actions aren’t mutually exclusive, and even if only a few admin teams keep a closer watch on sexism, it’s already improving the situation.
One of my first experiences on Lemmy was a bunch of mens rights activists celebrating a women’s tech job fair being overrun by men.
I’m not surprised that this is a problem. Lemmy’s main demographic is the tech obsessed, that’s always going to be filled with misogynistic neckbeards.
the tech obsessed, that’s always going to be filled with misogynistic neckbeards.
Generalizations are hateful.
It’s a good job misogynists aren’t people. I might feel bad otherwise.
No reason to out yourself lol
Don’t say always.
It’s defeatist.
You’re a man quipping back on a post about men forcing themselves to women’s spaces.
I used to think differently, but men who force their way into conversations just to say “not all men” are part of the problem.
There’s no actual understanding, just correction and dismissal.
I’m a woman quipping back to say that if you have the defeatist stance that the “tech obsessed” demographic will “always” be misogynistic, then it will never improve.
Lemmy is a relatively small and niche platform, imo small platforms tend to be like that. First men show up, then transfems, and then cis women. We seem to be at the second stage and while things can be done better (like a female only instance) I do think things will get better.
