There is a lot of discussion happening in the background of our project here. We could not anticipate all of the challenges that we were going to face a few years ago. One of the reasons for this was because we had no idea what our choice of a platform would bring.
Specifically, we chose Lemmy as the software that we would use to launch our endeavor to attempt a safe space for marginalized persons online.
In the first year or so, this choice was completely successful for a very small number of users. And then we all experienced an enormous influx of users when Reddit announced/implemented their shutting down of third party apps.
Since then there has been a huge number of people that have joined the Beehaw project. This tsunami of users initiated technical problems, and otherwise, that we could not foresee.
Thankfully and fortunately, we have had a couple of incredibly knowledgeable persons that have swooped in to ’save the day’ and keep this site running.
Unfortunately, these persons will NOT be able to continue to support the Beehaw project much further. They have life commitments and other factors, including careers and family life, that will prevent them from contributing to our project in an ongoing fashion.
All that being said, Lemmy (the software that Beehaw runs on) development is incredibly slow and is riddled with problems that makes administration/moderation very painful.
Therefore, we are left with some options that may feel uncomfortable to us. For example, we may want to consider leaving the Fediverse for another software platform that does NOT include ActivityPub. To explain, Fediverse/ActivityPub are very positive concepts on the foundational level. However, the Beehaw project is struggling to include this because most of our moderation/content/ethos is being jeopardized from OTHER federated instances (i.e. it, mostly, is NOT coming from within our own Beehaw registered user base).
The aforementioned persons, that have ’swooped in to save the day’, have been discussing/working with us to come up with the best solutions that would enable the Beehaw project to continue while NOT needing incredibly experienced/technically adept persons around.
Right now, we are testing alternative software platforms and evaluating them based on everything that we want Beehaw to become in the future.
Thank you all for your continued support of the Beehaw project and entrusting us to make this happen.
Just unticking the federation option would allow for a lot more direct control in itself. Pethaps more of a discussion of what the challenges of losing a couple technical resources are could help bring out some solutions. Maintaining an instance at a base level is pretty easy, performance is another matter perhaps.
May I suggest pinning this for more visibility?
Whatever the decision is, it’s important that everyone knows what’s going on. Whatever the outcome, I’ll stay/move to wherever Beehaw resides. I enjoy the space and vibe that’s created here.
I think everything laid out here is perfectly reasonable. Lemmy hasn’t made it easy and easy doesnt seem to be on the horizon for that development team.
My personal thoughts is that I don’t think that the currrent implementation of lemmy is going to reach a point where the capabilities of the platform is going to meet the requirements of the beehaw project. Definitely not in the near term, and low probability in the scale of years.
If the worse comes about ill probably follow along to where ever beehaw ends up and ill just set up an lemmy acc elsewhere.
I don’t envy the situation
// the commenter gives yet another unsolicited solution
I think it would be interesting if yall and other like minded instance admins were to start a federation pact/ code of conduct which would layout the requirements for federation. In my opinion, fostering the kind of online community that beehaw strives to be (as I see it anyways), requires acting outside of the capabilities of the lemmy the platform. Granted, this would require a critical mass of instances willing to sign to such a pact but this may ease the workload from a moderation point of view.
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If there are moderation issues, wouldn’t it be easier to recruit more moderators?
The current number of moderators is small and I am sure a lot of people might want to step up to help.
If there are moderation issues, wouldn’t it be easier to recruit more moderators?
No. The tools needed for successfully moderating Lemmy federated items, is severely lacking. The primary devs do not seem interested in making this area a priority either from their own efforts, or others submitting PRs for such. More moderators won’t help when the ability to moderate isn’t there.
Makes me wonder if a fork will happen in the future. Wonder if offerings will be much different a year from now, and if options like kbin will be more polished by then.
Everyone wants a fork. Nobody wants to be the fork.
We need a small group of motivated and skilled developers to get together and decide “we’re doing this”, and actually go beyond announcing an empty Git repo. (i.e. actually have some usable code to show for)
Dealing with a codebase as janky and large as Lemmy is unfortunately beyond my skillset, otherwise I’d love to get involved myself.
All fediverse code is weird. Lemmy is extra weird on account of being written in a systems language
Picking a fedi server software is just picking how much (and what kind of) jank you’re willing to tolerate. The features are always secondary.
Everyone wants a fork. Nobody wants to be the fork.
Rust and ORM makes changes incredibly slow and even recent editions like sanitizing for JavaScript exploits have been buggy.
We need a small group of motivated and skilled developers to get together and decide “we’re doing this”, and actually go beyond announcing an empty Git repo.
Lemmy had one major thing that kbin and other apps did not have in 2023… a working API. And that happened to be what Reddit decided to start charging for in May. Kbin is right now adding an API, but it isn’t compatible with Lemmy. Lemmy could also use a streamlined API, there is opportunity right now to make a combined Lemmy and kbin API since federation normalizes a lot of the features between the two. I hope people see this opportunity that is open right now and the one big strength.
I don’t think an API is the thing that matters here. There are quite a lot of things you can’t hack on with a client alone and actually needs server side support to function (actual moderation tooling is a prime example)
Also most APIs aren’t “designed” per se and just expose the internal representations of the projects they’re of. A “common” API would either be too “wide” enough to be unusable (hello, ActivityPub C2S) or would severely limit experimentation and innovation (good luck on building microblogs in the Lemmy API) without having so many extensions that essentially end up being a third, completely different API.
I don’t think an API isn’t the thing that matters here.
because of the negatives in your statement, it isn’t clear what you mean.
I think the API is why June 2023 there was a huge surge of users coming to Beehaw and Lemmy platform. There were tons of forum software out there, and even kbin, but Lemmy took off because it had an API
fixed that part, words are hard
The thing I’m trying to say is that “having an API” does not matter in the long term if the API does not expose the functionality needed to use it properly.
And TBF if someone joined Lemmy only because it had an API and nothing else then they’re gonna be in for a very rude awakening sooner or later as the troubles of federation that previous (mostly microblogging) platforms have encountered and attempted to solve (not to mention novel problems due to the community oriented nature of Lemmy) start to show up.
This is only going to get worse, and throwing “more API” into the fire won’t fix any of the important problems at hand.
I don’t think a fork would be a solution to this problem. The problem is not that the maintainers don’t accept contributions, but that no one is making the necessary contributions.
Is a forum site a possibility? I honestly miss internet forums. It does kind of sound like what you’re looking for beehaw to be.
And Beehaw doesn’t have a huge amount of activity, so the prioritization provided by a Reddit-style ranking system is less useful. I think going to a typical forum/messageboard system just makes sense.
There’s a front-end for Lemmy that basically turns it into a php forum.
The issue here isn’t the front-end and can’t be fixed with a new coat of wax.
What would be the main issues? I can think of some, and it pains me to not be able to help fix them, but maybe others could.
Lemmy and Kbin both lack a lot in moderation and anti-spam measures. Both apps are taking about having features to specifically throttle new local members. And anti-spam in terms of server to server doesn’t really exist at all.
The Reddit-style presentation of topics and ranking comments isn’t really conducive to lengthy, quality discussions that persist over a period of time. The Reddit-style works for following current events and posting links to new things etc, but as a result, old topics - topics even a couple of days old - falls off the engagement radar. Once it’s gone from the front page, it’s gone from people’s consciousness. This is bad for a small community with few posts that value quality of discussions over blind sharing of links. For instance, say I create a topic called “share your favorite vegan recipes” - I may get some replies in the first couple of days, but then the topic will fall off the frontpage and completely die. This is further exacerbated by the voting system. On Reddit/Lemmy, topics and comments which have a higher number of votes get more visibility, and this creates two issues - one is it encourages group think and creates an echo chamber, the other is that it drowns out less popular topics or comments. This sort of intentional drowning of posts and comments actually may be a good thing - and even necessary - on high-userbase systems like Reddit, where a single thread could have thousands of comments - but it works against low-traffic communities like Beehaw, where every comment is valuable (unless it’s off-topic/spam etc of course).
Whereas in a traditional forum:
- A topic gets bumped to the top when someone posts a comment, which encourages threads to live longer
- There’s not as much importance given to the “newness” of a post
- The lack of votes on a topic would give equal importance to all topics
- The lack of votes on comments would encourage people to actually chime in if they agree or disagree with a comment, instead of just blindly voting
- Forums also allow you to show a categorized homepage, where you can have several sub-forums appear on the homepage all at once. This is a better approach than blindly unifying the entire feed in one page, because this allows threads in low-traffic subs to keep their visibility and compete against high-traffic subs. For instance, consider a current news sub which may get a lot of posts ever single day, vs a niche sub such as gardening. With a unified feed, you’d almost never see posts from a gardening sub, unless you went into that sub.
With all the above reasons, forums are therefore more conducive for encouraging discussions, over a place which simply acts like a feed aggregator. Traditional forums are the solution to the doomscrolling issues that plague modern social media. Plus, they offer better moderation tools, with better granular permissions granted to mods, so you could grant various levels of access. Also, you can place several restrictions on users to reduce spam, for instance, you could grant a user rights to post a topic only after they’ve read all the rules, and maybe participated in a quiz or something. You could grant additional rights to people who’ve gotten a certain number posts in their bag. You could have a “trusted poster” system where a user could have mod-like abilities. There’s so many ways a forum is a lot more flexible than a system like Lemmy.
So overall, I think Beehaw’s ethos and vision would align better with a traditional forum, over a feed-aggregator style forum like Lemmy.
Wholeheartedly agree. Beehaw’s vibe always felt more like a forum than a feed aggregator. I think that format would fit it better.
The Reddit-style presentation of topics and ranking comments isn’t really conducive to lengthy, quality discussions that persist over a period of time.
I don’t know whether @[email protected] had all these in mind, but as far as lengthy & quality discussions go, everything you wrote to support this sentece, in my experience, seems 100% correct. There was a time, when forums when used more, during which a discussion on a subject would carry on for weeks, even months, between different individuals. Taking the time, thinking over the subject and coming back with a response after days was not at all uncommon.
Reddit grew to a point that the focus became constant refreshes and the most recent 6 hours of postings… and reposts became the normal means of revisiting a topic. And when a topic gets more than 1500 comments, a repost resets that. It’s just a machine that rolls the clock constantly in favor of “new”.
Tracking on this; I am not alone on the team or community here, but I agree with everything you said. I don’t like nor want that in your face, featured, hot ranking content. I want to go view the content that I want and sometimes that is reviewing the discussion I had 3 weeks ago with new eyes and information. I prefer a community like that, but I also really enjoy something like HackerNews. No clutter, presents quality information that’s relevant, and only a few flamewars.
After reading your post, I’m more on the side of following beehaw to the format that suits them best. I couldn’t figure out why I wasn’t finding those quality posts here after a while, and what you said about them being quickly pushed out in favor of new content makes a lot of sense.
Although I came here through the rexodus, I agree that the Reddit style format still carries a lot of problems that I’d rather not keep, and it’s important to have a quality space I can post (also because I’m trans and need those spaces too)
I do still feel a need for the dopamine rush of cat pics and memes, so I’m not sure if there’s a way to hybridize that with a forum? If not, there’s always burner Lemmy accounts (or Tumblr lol) for that
Beehaw without federating would be essentially that, of course other software options are available.
The Reddit style ranking system is a bit silly for a forum with lower activity. In fact it could make marginalized peoples feel more marginalized if their past simply gets buried.
If there’s not going to be federation via activitypub I will not continue to use beehaw at all, so, this was very unfortunate to read.
Makes sense. Beehaw was always its own community first, federation seemed to be some extra stuff on top of that. Staying on lemmy with less federation or even a few forum software makes sense for the goals of the project.
You’d lose the people who wanted different, but I don’t think being a major social hub for everybody was ever the intent.
Honestly, I wholeheartedly support this move. For a couple of (obviously subjective) reasons:
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Lemmy/kbin isn’t ready. If Beehaw staff were able to fork their own version of the base code with their moderation etc. design preferences in mind, this would be another thing – though even then it might not be enough to be worth it with the headache of fediverse moderation.
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Closed system/community is more personal, hence more productive and less noisy. At least before it outgrows itself.
What I’d hope but is also more work and potentially creates conflicts, is that the new platform provides good moderation logging etc. Which I think is key feature to ensure trust and self policing.
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I appreciate the transparency and willingness to discuss with the community.
I was a rexxitor in July, trying out different online communities after deleting my account there. I was very affected by the lack of moderation on Reddit, and subsequently every other platform that I’ve tried since then.
It’s pretty clear to me that safety is an issue that affects all humans who use the internet. A sense of safety and security allows our minds the freedom to create. If Beehaw can find a sustainable way to keep us feeling safe to express ourselves, the people will come. The content will come, I can guarantee it.
Ultimately, the decision is up to the leadership here and I trust and respect that. I have no clue about any of this stuff. I just want to find a place where I can post my art and hopefully? maybe? not have to endure hate.
I’m a big proponent of federation and the Lemmyverse. While it would be sad for me to see Beehaw leave ActivityPub, I’ve always said that the admin team should do what they think is best for themselves and Beehaw and I will respect such decisions.
I probably wouldn’t make a new account on another service because that would require a new app on my phone, but I’m OK with that if the idea of Beehaw prospers in another space.
@PenguinCoder @admin If I may suggest something on Lemmy as a stopgap measure, Beehaw can enlist the help of one of the AutoMod programs of Lemmy, so that any comment not on an approved user or instance list are removed on the specific “safe-space” communities. It might take some testing/tinkering but this may give you some of the granularity in moderation that has been requested.
Sorry to say I won’t be following if you leave the Fediverse
Which features would you need to continue staying federated, possibly limited to white-listed instances?
Thank you for being upfront and honest about the challenges you’re facing. I’d like to also put my vote in for going whitelist only rather than moving off the fediverse altogether. However, I’m a big fan of beehaw and would likely follow a migration, but only if there’s a good mobile experience on the new site.
As a Reddit App-ocalypse refugee, I’m not going back to a centralized forum, much less without an app. Even Lemmy’s level of "hub-"alization is somewhat unnerving, but Beehaw has been a good compromise between moderation, federation, and app accessibility.
I would rather you could work out the kinks of the platform, instead of switching to another. I think Beehaw is highly positive for the Lemmy space, and that it would be best for everyone if the platform could be adapted to include meeting Beehaw’s needs.
I’ll still be hanging out on Beehaw regardless of what happens or where it ends up, but in case a migration does happen, are there any good instance recommendations for us that want to keep Lemmy accounts as well but want to have a nicer more moderated experience?
A good bit of the other instances I’ve tried seem to moderate as a last resort or final straw, which just ends being not very effective overall.
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I like slrpnk.net
I went with lemmy.one because it is run by /r/privacyguides and is federated with lemmy.world and beehaw with it being the two instances I wanted to be able to participate in.
