My wife works in a restaurant, and the power-tripping manager has instituted a new policy where all shift changes must be approved by management. I think that is reasonable enough, but they’re also asking the originally-scheduled employee why they are switching shifts, then approving or denying based on the answer.
For example, her coworker (Tom) wanted Monday afternoon off, and Harry agreed to cover the shift. The manager asked Tom why he wanted Harry to work for him, and Tom said, “I have a softball game.” Manager denied the shift change because it was “unnecessary”.
Is this legal? I feel like if you’re able to find someone to cover your shift, you don’t owe management any explanation why you need the time off. How should my wife approach this situation? Colorado, USA BTW.
“show me in my employment contract where it says I have to disclose that”
If this is in the US employment contracts are virtually nonexistent.
If a policy doesn’t discriminate against a protected class, it’s pretty much legal. Your recourse is to find another job.
I am pretty sure at any firm bigger than a mom & pop, there will be some sort of written agreement that the employee signs that establishes their intent to work for the employer. That’s an employment contract even if it’s not labeled as such. For example, they can sue if they aren’t paid their agreed compensation. Because there’s a contract for them to receive that compensation.
This is not correct. Wage theft is protected by law, not contract.
An offer letter is specifically not an employment contract - that distinction is usually spelled out in the law and also in virtually every offer letter.
We need legal advice communities
With the country built into the community name. Less confusion and wasted energy that way.
In the US, the state matters as well.
Not really, it’s a private company unless you sign a contract they can indeed make their own policies.
This is perfect for /c/Antiwork, do you mind if I cross post this?
Of course it’s legal. Why wouldn’t it be?
She should approach it by either following the stupid rules or finding a new job
I second others advice by saying as little as possible. “Family issues” “personal obligations” “health problem”
No use being honest with a boss that isn’t understanding
Of course it’s legal. Why wouldn’t it be?
I’m assuming you’re USian?
The question almost anywhere else in the wealthy world is why would it be legal? The manager does not need to know therefore the manager has no right to ask.
No that’s the case in the US too. I never ask why my employee wants time off, I don’t need to know any more about their personal lives, they tell me too much already…
If we look at it from the management side, a person covering your shift means he/she will go overtime which means more cost for the restaurant. I don’t know how big or popular this place is but if one doesn’t like the way things are going, she should file a complaint with HR or maybe look for another job.
Overtime in the hospitality trade?
Where?
I have a co-worker who says her reason for the time off request is always gynecology related. Bosses never ask questions.
Yeah the policy OP described just creates a culture where people lie about why they need time off 😆
It’s not school - if someone agrees to cover the shift, just let em
“Good morning boss, I need two weeks off for gynecology-related activities”.
“I don’t want to know, Dave.”
It’s time to give up this dream, you never even went to med school
You could be having a baby, that falls into the scope.
Or trying to make one on the beach in Fiji with a partner or a local.
I need a leave for my pap exam.
Denied.
Why?
You’re a man.
Gender discrimination reported to corporate headquarters.
deleted by creator
It’s legal but insane. Your wife should start looking for a new job.
Correct, non sick leave is usually considered discretionary time off; meaning, it’s at the discretion of the manager to approve it.
That said, this manager sounds like a nut job. It’s legal to be a hard ass, but people don’t have to remain working for you.
I see what you’re saying, but we’re not talking about requesting a paid personal day. We’re talking about having you’re shift covered by another person, and having that denied because management doesn’t like the reason you want the shift covered.
I’m not sure it would be legal if they were forced to reveal medical information.
Christ are we going to be having “hippa”(sic) arguments again?
You can refuse to answer - I sure would. Or just say you have an appointment. Being asked is not illegal.
Then I assume the jerk will just deny your request.
Right, but if you’re request for denied for something medically necessary unless you revealed it, you went anyway (because it’s necessary), and then you got fired… That feels like it shouldn’t be legal (obviously that doesn’t mean that it isn’t).
It’s up to you to reveal it or not. It’s not a “request” if it can’t be denied.
That would be a violation, but it is perfectly m legal to ask if someone is going on generic “sick” or “medical” time off of leave. Every company I’ve ever worked for has had be declare my PTO as sick leave or discretionary time off. And the latter is what it means, it’s at the discretion of the manager to approve it.
Sorry but most restaurant work doesn’t come with paid time off or sick leave. You either work and get paid or don’t work and don’t get paid.
Sure, but that assumes this manager would be happy with generic “medical stuff” as an answer…
Worst comes to worst, they could ask for a doctor’s note. And doctors notes are always pretty generic and basically say “yup, they can’t work.” But if the manager does ask for Dr’s notes, they need to apply the policy equally to all employees.
It’s usually a HIPAA violation if an employer asks for specifics about a medical issue.
Source: I’m a people manager who has had to go through a bunch of trainings about these laws.
“Personal obligation.” Should be the only response anybody gives him going forward.
Could go into great detail about significant health issues, becoming more and more emotional as you go on, and tearfully asking “why would you make me talk about this? I wanted to keep this private! I haven’t even told my family yet!”.
Exactly. I’m a manager and literally never ask the reason unless it’s longer than a week. They like to tell me anyway even though I’ve told them I don’t care.
Maybe they just really feel like they can open up to you, Dicksinabag.
I feel like I could open up to Discksinabag pretty easily
I’d actually prefer it if they opened up to me.
I don’t know, that feels like a risk
Wait, are we all talking about docking now?
I thought we were talking about hamburgers and got hungry. I love dicksinabag
I can’t imagine having a manager like in this post. I had to get a few hours coverage for my on call shift to pick my partner up from the hospital for an outpatient surgery. Manager didn’t ask why I needed coverage but it just happened to come up. They immediately offered to get my entire shift moved without me even asking.
Seriously don’t understand managers like this. Also a manager, qnd I’ll even find the coverage if someone needs a day off. I know how nerve wracking it is as an employee calling around asking someone to cover your shift, its a lot easier for me to send a mass text. Incidentally, the staff seem much more willing to pick up shifts this way.
Bad case of anal glaucoma. I just can’t see my ass going in to work today.
A+, just got to figure out how to work this into conversation without getting HR involved now.
Then use a more medical sounding term
I think my Rectal-Ocular Degeneration is flaring up.
Always give your boss as little information as possible. They aren’t entitled to it and are much more likely to use it against you.
I say that as a manager. It’s just good practice. If the manager doesn’t know exactly why you’re taking the day off, they can’t be held accountable for it either.
As a manager, I don’t give a flying fuck why my team wants to take time off. Wanna sit on your ass and play video games for a week straight, cool all good by me : just let me know the dates, check their PTO balance, and ensure it doesn’t conflict with key deliverables and if so either work out a plan for coverage or suggest they look for a different time to take off if possible
Yeah, I don’t know what Colorado’s laws are on this in general, but even if it’s technically legal it seems like a huge risk that someone is going to plausibly allege that given the specific facts denying them time off was race/religion/family status/… discrimination. It might be legal (don’t know), but it’s a stupid policy for a number of reasons.
The answer is going to depend on Country, State (if in the US) and locality. For a US based answer, you can contact he US Department of Labor and ask them for a real answer (certainly better than you’d get asking people on the internet). You can also contact the Department of Labor for whatever State the work is performed in.
At a guess, it’s probably legal under certain circumstances. Knowing most small businesses, the policy is probably not that nuanced.
What bullshit. I’d make something up every time. Whether their request is legal or not, my personal life isn’t my employer’s business, and certainly doesn’t revolve around their “approval”.
What bullshit. I’d make something up every time.
Whether their request is legal or not, my personal life isn’t my employer’s business, and certainly doesn’t revolve around their “approval”.
Tell her to just start lying about horrible medical conditions. Lying isn’t illegal.
“I need Thurs and Fri off to get a painful hemorrhoid lasered”
Not illegal but dumb if it’s a power trip. If the shift is covered, then the business doesn’t suffer, but there may be other things at play. For example, the day and time of the shift. If it’s during a super busy day sad you may need extra coverage.
Now, there may be other things going on, like employees constantly changing shifts at will. When I owned a restaurant, I spent an awful amount of hours figuring out shifts that were equitable. As a manager if I want to have some certainty, the constant changes by employees whom only informed me they had negotiated behind the scenes, would feel disrespectful of my time and of the time of others.
This probably has nothing to do with your wife, but everything to do with that other dude. If I had known that he had a softball game coming up, or is in a league on Saturdays, I’d have been happy to work with him to figure out a shift change. Shit like that happens. But if this guy keeps bothering other employees to get them to cover for him constantly, that would also be disrespectful of their time. Even if they agree to do it.
In other words: If that guy thinks that his softball game is more valuable than your wife’s time with you or your family, then he should look for a job that suits his lifestyle.
If your wife, on the other hand, would come t me and tell me she needed the hours, I could work with her on that.
In the long run, I agree. A personal softball game by itself, is not reason enough to miss your shift. Just like shit happens, work also happens.
And just a no without an explanation is also not valid. A good manager lets people understand their decisions.
You shouldn’t even “find someone to cover your shift”. That’s the manager’s job. If the manager is not the owner then a call to corporate is necessary. If they’re the owner then fuck this place.
If you were scheduled to work it is a reasonable thing to do though.
Nope, that’s why there is management. They take care of scheduling. Employees don’t need to do management’s job for them. I always call off at my job, never heard my manager tell me to find someone to cover my shift, they take care of it. This is a culture that restaurants made us think is ok, and it is not
I would decline to answer, and if pressed, say something vague, such as, “a medical procedure”. That should be enough for most people, but if it they keep pressing, I would come up with something embarrassing, such as, “I need the time off to get my anal prolapse taken care of.” Then be upset that you had to disclose private medical information and ask to speak to HR.
I don’t know if you were addressing the specific case mentioned, but if someone has a softball game they want to go to, and they say they have a medical procedure to take care of, that could easily be grounds for termination.
Best answer I can think of is to unionize and negotiate a CA that includes shift trade rights. Short term, I don’t think there’s much you can do if the company wants to be a dick.
If it’s a softball game, just say “I have to see someone about my balls”.
Ok, unemployment.
It’s a restaurant, not the presidency. Get a coworker to be your reference, do well at your interview and move on.
Mental health is a medical issue. Ergo any vacation is medical.
Points for creative thinking, but I would prefer not to get fired and have to seek redress through the courts.
In my experience most restaurants dont even have HR lmao. My mileage obviously varies but I have worked a few food industry jobs, and exactly 0 had any HR person other than the managers and assistant managers themselves
I believe HR in this instance would be “calling corporate.”
Despite the fact that, as another user pointed out, restaurants rarely have an HR department, it is important to remember that HR exists solely to protect the company. They are not there to advocate for your rights as an employee. If you think your rights have been violated at work, you should contact your state’s labor department (assuming you are US based). My state even has a nice website that outlines your rights as an employee and a form you can submit if your rights have been violated.
That’s exactly the point. HR is there to protect the company from you suing them for forcing you to provide personal medical information that you weren’t comfortable sharing.
100% this. A former coworker was fired a month ago because he filed an HR complaint about his boss, because the boss was being an asshole to him (according to co worker).
This is the same boss who joked about beating his wife and kicking his dog in a meeting, so I’m fairly certain it’s true.
HR is NEVER your friend.
If that’s the case and they aren’t leaving out pertinent information, that’s a pretty clear case of retaliation, which is illegal in many/most US states, even those without robust worker protection laws.
Sounds like he didn’t have documented proof sufficient to bring a suit against the company. Sucks but save your emails. Forwarding is free
Ehh, I’ve worked in HR for 20 years and this isn’t even close to true. It’s what angry losers like to shout on reddit and now lemmy bc they’ve been fired. The whole point of hr is to balance between employees and the company. Sorry you got fired, I’m sure you’ll find your talents valued somewhere else
Yes you use HR as a weapon against such a manager for perceived federal protection violations
