- No server operator needs to federate with you.
- No server operator needs to tolerate things they don’t want on their instance.
- No user of an instance needs to personally curate their own extensive never ending blocklist of users and channels they don’t want to see.
Quit your pseudo-intellectual whining and choose what instance(s) work for you. If you think regularly interacting with shit content somehow helps you stay out of an echo chamber then go ahead and make a second account on those garbage instances full of hateful people. Then you can read both the decent servers and the trash ones and be the fedora wearing ackshually right fair and balanced uber nerd you always wanted to be.
Edit: The huge number of upvotes on this post compared to the low numbers on the whiney imposers’ posts is proof of exactly where this community places its priorities.
According to some of the posts in here, apparently, wanting to ban Nazis from your instance and refusing to rebroadcast their toxic shit is being “entitled”…
This makes the Nazis sound like a bunch of Karen’s lol
I would definitely expect the Venn diagram of neo-nazis and Karens who give trouble to retail workers to look a lot like a circle.
Sometimes it’s a circle, sometimes it’s a Mickey Mouse hat on Ron DeSantis’ head.
Nothing wrong with feeling entitled to tell nazis to fuck off.
Right, I guess you would tell immigrants they’re free to join another country.
Thanks for calling it “whining” when people engage in conversation about how to organize. You seem nice and tolerant. Not toxic, lover of safe (cruel?) spaces.
Yes, because selling your home and moving your family and all your belongings several hundred miles is exactly equivalent to making a second lemmy account. Expecting sever owners who invest time and money into this to cater to your wants when making a second account is too hard is fair and doesn’t come off as whiney behavior at all either.
exactly equivalent
Nothing is “exactly equivalent” to anything unless it’s two identical numbers. The analogy is definitely legit. You’re telling people to GTFO.
Expecting sever owners who invest time and money into this to cater to your wants
This applies much better to people asking server owners to block instances.
This is true, nothing is exactly equivalent, bad choice of words. It’s not remotely equivalent either though. An equivalent scenario would be if immigrants showed up to the border, and were turned away, but also had a 1000 other places the could go within a few feet. And it applies to everyone making demands of server owners. Make an appeal for your wants. If they ignore it, find a server that fits better.
Yes it is equivalent, because you’re telling your fellow humans to LEAVE instead of discuss things on a public forum. It’s obviously weird and petty to tell people to leave.
And yet the mods aren’t harassing me and I’m not harassing the mods. I’m discussing the benefits of connection with all the other federated users. And a very small number of people are petty enough to tell me to leave. “We don’t discuss things 'round here. Giiit out!”
I believe in being kind to kindness and cruel to cruelty.
The garbage trash instances (ie. exploding-heads) are cruel, they get cruelty in return. It’s a moral imperative to NOT be nice to them.
This is nothing like immigration and that point is so bad it’s not even wrong it’s just nonsense.
You’re not being cruel to the “garbage trash instances,” you’re being cruel to your fellow Lemmy-users who you accuse of “whining” as they express their opinions about federation.
We’re talking about defederating with the garbage trash instances. Specifically exploding-heads.
All defederation thus far has been about not connecting to the hate (EH, lemmygrad, etc.). No one is trying to defederate with reasonable instances.
No one on these instances is my fellow anything. They can go wallow in the cesspits where they belong.
Hi from my new self hosted instance!
Something something landed gentry ;)
I assume if I stick to Lemmy this is what I’ll have to do. I just a basic experience where I can see everything and not have instances arbitrarily blocked on the whim of an admin
Might have finally found a use for my old Framework 13 motherboard, not like it would see huge traffic so it would be plenty powerful enough.
There is a lot of spite in your comment bro.
Yeah, so?
Jesus wasn’t a carpenter either. He was the son of a carpenter and that more likely translates better to day laborer. It was a reflection of his very humble origins. Being the son of a man in a trade (like a carpenter) would have put him more middle class.
Jesus and his father were likely stone workers, not carpenters. The translations got jumbled up along the way.
There historically was a stone quarry about a mile from where Jesus lived as a child. That area also wasn’t home to a lot of trees.
There is also a lot of house and stone work parables in the his teachings, and references to corner stones multiple times.
Jesus was a stone worker, not a wood worker. His name was also Yeshua, or “Joshua” as we know it today.
That’s really interesting. Thanks!
Who says that the person you replied to named themselves after that Jesus?
“…b-b-buh-but muh fReE sPeEcH!!1”
-idiots who don’t understand the 1st amendment only protects speech from the government, not individuals or corporations and it definitely doesn’t protect them from the consequences of their words (never mind the fact that it only applies to one country)
The supreme court has also ruled that “the right of the people to peaceably assemble” includes groups telling people they disagree with to leave. Freedom of association includes freedom to not associate
We’re not Americans tho. Supreme Court can go fly paper planes somewhere else.
Not a government either, this is a website.
Yes. Agreed.
100%. My point wasn’t that the supreme court and the constitution are global law. Just that if people are gonna make first amendment argments, they need to realize that they’re stupid as hell if they think the first amendment gauruntees they be allowed to say anything anywhere to anyone
There is a common misunderstanding. First of all, this is a Canadian instance. There is no American constitution ruling over it. Second, free speech is not limited to the American constitution, or to governments. It is a concept that is related to people’s ability to express themselves, not necessarily in relation to a governmental power.
Are you implying that because the concept freedom of speech exists everyone is inherently required to follow it? What point are you trying to make??
No. I’m saying that the presence or absence of the first amendment does not preclude the pursuit, or lack thereof, of free speech. I’m saying that free speech can be perfectly pursued or restricted in the absence of the american government, and that the first amendment is simply a statement for Americans, by Americans, on what free speech means in terms of government regulation.
Freedom of speech as a concept, sure, but the first amendment only applies to the US government.
Broadly speaking, here’s a list of countries and their relative levels of freedom of speech: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-freedom-of-speech
That’s what I said though. Idk who mentioned the first amendment.
I was just making fun of people who bring it up when it’s totally irrelevant, on a Lemmy hosted in Canuckistan.
Still, free speech can be pursued despite the unavailability of a first amendment. I myself do not like being restricted in what I can say, so if I am limited, I will try to fight this limitation, whether I am sponsored by daddy Obama’s freedom drones or not. Now, if I went around waving a print of the first amendment that would indeed be ridiculous, especially being in Europe where it’s not a concern of governments or the people in general.
Sure, freedom of speech can be pursued anywhere, to varying degrees of risk.
Canada or Norway? Sure, you’ll probably be fine!
Russia or China? Depends on what you are expressing.
With the right VPN your chances increase infinitely. :)
Lol you genuinely believe Canada has anything resembling free speech? Because I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
I feel like these are just growing pains. I mean I’m sure people will argue about to defederate or not for as long as the fediverse exists, but I imagine it’ll become background noise as people get accustomed to what the fediverse is and isn’t.
The fact that this level of choice exists, both for operaters and for users is a big part what makes these places stand apart from reddit and it’s ilk.
Some of us are old enough to remember IRC networks splitting up and the Fediverse de-federation drama feels exactly the same. It is an aspect of human nature that cannot be solved with technical solutions.
It is completely normal for groups of humans to split up and segregate themselves from each other with some individuals belonging to multiple groups simultaneously. It’s how we evolved and it’s how the Fediverse (and whatever comes after) will evolve going forward.
Every instance is like a political party without exclusivity. You can belong to multiple at once. Rather than working on identity migration my opinion is that they should instead come up with a way for people to login to each other’s instances with different accounts. Just like I can login to Disqus or StackExchange with my Google account I should be able to login to Beehaw.org with my programming.dev account and vice versa.
This would be very convenient from an end-user’s perspective since they could access posts and comments on the instance where they live and links to communities could be handled in an absolute, universal format and it wouldn’t even matter (from the end user’s perspective). Because if they loaded /c/whatever on some Lemmy instance or /m/whatever on a Kbin instance they’d still be posting using their Beehaw.org account (or wherever they have an account). Links to external communities could just load those external communities and it wouldn’t need so much data to be federated between all instances (e.g. comments and votes).
In regards to moderation: Even if Beehaw.org banned my account from posts/comments that doesn’t really have any bearing on whether or not it should accept my account from a login perspective (it’s better than having banned users browsing anonymously–because then the instance owners will know they’re there). It would also allow moderators at Beehaw.org (or any other instance) to ban specific users from other instances much more easily because those users would likely stay at that other instance rather than have multiple accounts anywhere and everywhere that would also need to be banned.
I’m not sure it’s entirely just growing pains. Some of the people arguing for defederation seem to be arguing in bad faith. On the other hand, it seems like they are uniting the community against defederation, which is ultimately a good thing.
A lot of the people arguing to never defederate are the types who smell of “but who is going to read my extremist views if you all defederate my instance, I already got banned everywhere else”.
I need examples. I am trying to find some.
The only whinging I seen so far is tankies whinging about the potential of Nazis coming on this platform. All they need to do is hold up a mirror.
Also, genocide denying instance like lemmy.ml secretly blocking kbin.social.
Then you can read both the decent servers and the trash ones and be the fedora wearing ackshually right fair and balanced uber nerd you always wanted to be.
Is that what you think it is? For some maybe, but I think it’s good to take a look occasionally just to see what they’re focusing on. The terminology used. It’s more like recon. Know the “enemy”.
“Lenemy”
This. I used to lurk on r/conservative so when the in-laws came to visit I had a response to the bs they spewed. “Did you know Obama is giving every poor person an iPhone?” type stuff.
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That’s exactly what I do.
Exactly, I’m glad I’m not alone.
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Oh I’m not an active participent on them.
Seriously. And honestly, even ignoring the super hateful instances, if one server collectively wants to de-federate with another for ANY reason, it is entirely their prerogative. It’s funny how many people seem to think that other instances should be FORCED to host others’ content, all for their convenience. The level of entitlement there is off the charts.
It literally blows my mind that people seem to think otherwise. Especially since the admins hosting an instance are basically running a charity. If you don’t want to be on an instance that occasionally defederates from ones that defend hate speech, then go find a different instance, or start your own.
I have literally been downvoted in one of those posts for pointing out that defederating can not be replaced with per user instance blocking completely (as opposed to having both once per user instance blocking is implemented) because admins want to keep content that is illegal in their jurisdiction out of their instance caches.
The problem is that this and other places were sold as reddit alternatives and they’re actually worse than Reddit in that, on Reddit , with one account you could choose what to see and when (akin to controlling your own federation). If you didn’t like a mod team you could choose another sub easily. Same account. You could keep looking at the same place too.
Federation at the admin of an instance level means all that has a high cost (account per instance), you don’t get to see all at once due to the need to switch accounts and communities are fragmented.
There’s also a very clear thin skinned authoritarian attitude that seems to promote bullying against any type of dissent while claiming some sort of moral authority.
Lemmy is broken as a Reddit replacement. By not having the onus on the user but on the admin, and seeing the attitudes from the recommended major instances, it has little chance to generate diverse or interesting content and communities. Just very narrow and small, toe the line places with poor discoverability.
Shame.
Edit: in Reddit communities were above mods. In Lemmy, it’s potentially/in practice whiny Mods complaining about anyone in their community that doesn’t fully agree with them and having the power to completely ruin their account. Much worse.
bullying against any type of dissent
A big claim that calls for citations. “Any type of dissent” can be code for “nazi shit,” which are two different things. Can you specify?
Nazi shit. A big claim. I don’t care to talk with people who sees Nazis everywhere, you’re exactly the type of authortiarian user I’m talking about.
If my country has a different policy than your political party of choice, probably in the US, then suddenly I’m a nazi for even having an opinion. Don’t worry, I’m also a nazi for being against X war and a nazi for being for free speech, and a baby killer for X in another more pro abortion place and whatever.
Lame thinskinned authortiarians are exactly those who are attracted with this insanely top down lemmyworld. The type that will seek a cause and a self defined victimhood status in order to have different rules so they can abuse others, because you’re right and it’s “the greater good”.
tbh I only meant literal nazi shit, i.e. deliberate white pride recruitment shit. Nazi-flag nazi shit, shirts with swastikas nazi shit. Brand-name nazi shit.
Anyway, all I asked was if you could specify; and I guess you did, though “lame thinskinned authoritarians” doesn’t narrow it down a hell of a lot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Buddy, you can always host your own instance. Most places will not de-federate small instances if they don’t act inappropriately. This is the only way to build something sustainable that can’t be taken away by someone.
Yes. I also can develop my own social website. Both are efforts that are not worth it to undertake to just participate in this environment, which, will make the default barrier of entry a ridiculous one (or an authortiarian minded one).
No. It’s not. When the power is on decentralized Ids that the instance doesn’t have so much power over, then it will be more interesting. As it stands, it offers actually less than Reddit, which is incredible to me (I’m super onboard with descentralization and user power but this is not user power).
It’s really not that hard. Just host it on your computer, or find a smaller instance that everyone will federate with.
Can you suggest that smaller instance? Meeaw and sh.it, the 2 instances I tried keep defederating left and right and justifying bullying as long as it confirms to their political opinions.
It’s hypocritical, circlejerky and boring. Made me go back to Reddit. I don’t understand how this paradigm of no user control without the absurd friction of self hosting is better for the user unless you’re a niche authoritarian who is fully subservient to some admin.
The one I’m on is federated everywhere, although I think it also defederates the nazi instances. I think you might have to accept that people just don’t want to communicate with nazis.
That might be too much to ask of them 🤷
Yeah, its the same old story.
Lemmy gives you unprecedented power to communicate with people who share your beliefs. If you really want to communicate with nazis so badly no one is stopping you from hosting your own instance and getting your own domain.
The issue is that nazis don’t want to just communicate with others that share their beliefs, they want to force others to abide by them - the bedrock of fascism. So they always resort to dishonest tactics to try to make this happen.
I am almost a libertarian when it comes to this. If you want to be weird nazis and talk about how much I deserve to die for existing go do it in your weird corner. Just keep it away from me, you weirdos.
If you didn’t like a mod team you could choose another sub easily. Same account. You could keep looking at the same place too.
Well unfortunately if Reddit admins decided that you shouldn’t see something they just found a reason and banned it with no recourse. That’s actually way, way worse.
Exactly - for example with weed subs. A lot got summarily banned, the rest NSFW’d, because Spez wants Reddit G-rated for the IPO.
Over here, a Mormon instance defederating a weed-oriented instance isn’t going to shut down the stoners’s community.
If you don’t like the way an instance curates content, switch to a different instance, or make your own instance and curate content yourself.
The friction is too high each time. Compared to Reddit without offering that much value. Hell, that Blocklist admin is good and owns your user Paradigm makes for very inflexible and circlejerky interactions
Love it or leave means total consent or fuck you. That’s not a community. It’s a cult.
asks people to quit whining
whines
Anyway, I don’t really care about defederation enough to switch instances. But even if I did, you can’t deny that it’s annoying. When Lemmy introduces some nice way of migrating to other instances with userdata intact, then your rant will make sense. Without that, I don’t think it’s wrong if people complain.
Most people complaining have two weeks of user data…
I’d like to point out that most people on both sides of the defederation debate are like that. And this instance has been up for months with only LemmyGrad blocked
Two weeks.
New instance added to the block mix 👌 pumping up those numbers.
And during those 2 weeks I made 500 comments and almost 400 posts. Not picking sides, just saying that I’m tied to my instance now at this point.
Lol sameish. I don’t have that much of an attachment to my past though. Jump around, see it all, share stuff, delete account and repeat. Your friends will know where to find you.
You are single handedly keeping the entirety of lemmy alive
I’m not tied to my instance I AM MY INSTANCE
Seriously, I’ve been here like two weeks, and I got a basic grasp about federated instances in a couple days. People keep bitching in posts and comments.
Just host your own god damn instance for your hot takes.
I think they want it to be more like Reddit. Carefully moderated so they can feel safe in their echo chamber. If it isn’t then they’ll complain and moral bash you into submission instead of putting in the work to host their own instance.
Carefully moderated… echo chamber
Why equate one with the other? You can have a completely unmoderated or poorly moderated echo chamber. Conversely you can have a carefully/poorly moderated or completely unmoderated communities that aren’t echo chambers.
The concepts are orthogonal.
In fact, I’d argue that completely unmoderated communities are the most likely to end up as echo chambers. Because only those with extreme views would stick around so the natural end state is a community of extremists. Example: 8chan
That is just my experience in Reddit. Mods will ban you sometimes if they don’t like your opinion even if you haven’t broken any of the rules. That mostly apply to power trippers but all your points are valid as well.
Always baffles me how people just roll in and immediately start trying to reinvent the wheel. Bitch sit down and shut up, you might learn something.
Honesty compels me to admit that I did the exact same thing when I joined, rolled in here like “how are we going to deal with duplicate communities??”. The circle of life I guess
We have both sides here, Lemmygrad for far-left people, Beehaw for far-right.
In what universe is Beehaw “far-right”, or even “right” for that matter?
I don’t know about right or left, but beehaw looks the most “American” to me. I personally wanna have “All”, just without beehaw (as in some exclude post from filter).
My understanding is that Beehaw is an American instance. It’s left in America, but more centrist to right internationally.
In the universe where it banned lemmygrad because it’s marxist instance.
People defederate from lemmygrad because it’s a tankie instance, not because it’s leftist.
Tankies are disliked because they uncritically rally around any country that rejects/has sway against Western influence, even if that country does bad shit.
👏 Standing ovation
“interacting with shit content” but I want to see the most controversial instance. I want to see some wild shit. I’m curious of what the bad boys have to say.
Just make an account there then?
No-no, you misunderstand, I want the circus to come to me.
This. I love the circus. I open all the shitty instances often just to keep myself entertained. 😊 We don’t even have to pay for it.
