President Joe Biden was asked by a reporter in Israel on Wednesday what made him confident that the Israelis weren’t behind the explosion that killed hundreds at a Gaza hospital on Tuesday.
Biden responded that it was “the data I was shown by my Defense Department.”
Two U.S. officials told ABC News the Pentagon independently concluded the Gaza hospital blast was likely caused by an errant Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket that fell short of its target.
I mean. Fuck both. But fuck Hamas more.
I’ll drink to that.
Nah, fuck both is enough. I will never support jihadists and I will never support apartheid states.
They’re lying, I mean the US. Nothing new here.
This is the part where you show the receipts…
This is like a child demanding proof Santa isn’t real…
The person making a serious claim like that holds the burden of proof.
And yet Israel has shown none…
I just want to respectfully remind everyone that just because this tragedy was likely not perpetrated by Israel, it does not mean they are absolved of any of the hundreds of war crimes they have already committed.
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Israel has killed thousands and displaced millions…because they think it’s their god given right to conquer the land. most of the country agrees that arabic people should not have the right to live in land that was palestine a few years back.
The goal of palestinian nationalists is literally the same thing with the roles reversed. I fail to see a difference apart from the fact that Israel is stronger and we’re more critical towards it since it’s a democracy and should know better.
Palestinians are brutalized on a daily basis. Their land was stolen after WW2 then slowly usurped and terrorized while the world kept funding Israel. That was originally palestinian land, and there were even jewish communities in that palestinian land. Now it is an ethnostate that lets new yorkers take some guy’s ancestral home because he’s of the correct ethnic category.
e: it’s quite strange to have to explain to people why a genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid is bad.
Palestine as a country has never existed and Jews have as much of a historical claim to the regions as Palestinians do.
So for you, a millennia of history, distinct cultures, and dialect are meaningless. People who migrated and forcibly colonized in 1948, with no connection to the region or land have as much of a claim to it as an ethnicity who has lived there for centuries.
So if that’s your argument do you just believe that israel has the right to go on a conquest and slaughter palestine? Genuine question.
So if that’s your argument do you just believe that israel has the right to go on a conquest and slaughter palestine? Genuine question.
I don’t believe my comment indicated that. I simply don’t believe that Palestine has the right to go on a conquest and slaughter Israel either.
There are things that Israel did that I strongly disagree with, in recent history most of them are connected to West bank settlements. There are more things that I disagree with that Palestine did. I think that the 1948 UN proposed 2-state solution would have been more than reasonable, and it would have likely put Palestine into a much better position than it’s in now, but one can’t change the past. We’ll see if Israel government becomes more reasonable and thinks of a more current lasting solution, but I’m not holding my breath.
So for you, a millennia of history, distinct cultures, and dialect are meaningless.
Why do you think so? Jews also lived in the area, and the ones who came later afaik generally migrated and purchased their land legally, with the exception of migration during WW2, which was not legal, but imo pretty understandable since it was literally done by refugees running from the holocaust. People argue that it wasn’t kosher since the region was under British control, but before that it was under the control of Osmans and before that the region was afaik under control of someone who conquered it for most of its history. It has never been a country.
Obviously this doesn’t give Israel a claim over the whole region, but I don’t think they have any less of a right for existence than Palestine.
Have you never heard of middle eastern Jews? Genuine question
They killed multiple journalists earlier this week and killed at least 6 in a strike on a school and this hospital debacle has drowned all of that out.
Just because they did a lot of bad things doesn’t mean that you can blatantly lie about killing 500 civilians and then get away with it. Can Israel lie about Hamas beheading 500 babies? And when they do, are you going to accept the narrative of well even if they didn’t do it, they did a lot of bad things? Don’t think so.
I get why you’re saying that, but that doesn’t help anyone.
I mean, Isreal bombed that same hospital 2 days earlier, was conducting bombing campaigns in the area, ordered the evacuation of the hospital less than 24 hours before, and kept changing their story around it. It was a pretty fair assumption that it was them until more evidence was produced.
Israel was asking every place that had civilians in the north, including this hospital, to evacuate them south. Which itself is highly problematic, but the warnings were not specific to this hospital.
They specifically asked for hospitals to be evacuated in addition to the general evacuation order
Could you please provide a source on the bombing of the same hospital 2 days earlier by Israel?
Sorry for the weird source, I grabbed it from Wikipedia. I could try to find something more reputable later today. It’s hard to find sources on every specific bombing, as they’ve dropped many thousands in the past week.
Edit: This is anglicannews because the Anglican Church runs the hospital, so this is actually about as direct a source as we’re gonna get. (I see that part in the headline now, I was tired when I found this earlier)
Better sources as promised:
NY Times (mentioned towards the end of the article): https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-explained.html
NPR (midway): https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206795861/heres-the-available-evidence-of-what-happened-at-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza
You know multiple groups of people can be wrong at the same time right
You know that is exactly what I’m saying, right?
Are both of you people even capable of saying anything which isn’t a question GOD-DAMN
Yeah, is there any place in southern Gaza that isn’t packed full of the people they told to move there from the north for ‘safety’?
You rather they stay on top of the Hamas terror tunnels Israel is targeting? Hamas would like that.
Lmao, “terror tunnels”
Can we hold hamas (and palestine for giving them a holdout) for their war crimes, or is your logic only one-way?
Yeah, because condemning one side means you cant condemn the other…
This is why I asked haha
No, people here are incapable of thinking in anything other than black-and-white
You speak the truth, even if it was meant to be sarcastic.
Ah yes. Just like Iraq had WMDs.
Sure is crazy how, of all the places a rocket misfire could have landed, it struck a place guaranteed to be full of people. A baptist hospital, no less, which would definitely drive up religious tensions in the area if it turned out it was bombed by HAMAS. Israel couldn’t have hoped for a more favorable outcome, how fortunate.
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What do you mean “our cause”?
Isn’t truth the cause, and to stop the killing of ANY civilians? And to stop the needless killing on all sides….
Oh you sweet summer child, I wish.
I have no idea what you’re asking. Yes I would love if people stopped this madness and gave palestinians their homeland back. what does that have to do with facing the facts of one tragedy? friendly fire happens.
I’m no politician but that suggestion is even more untenable than the zionists here
My dude, HAMAS rockets are barely capable of doing property damage, let alone killing hundreds of people. You expect me to believe that one of these things broke apart mid flight in the perfect fucking way to strike at the fuel supply and set it off in the middle of a huge building full of people? That this practically Rube Goldbergian chain of events is the more likely explanation? One of us is definitely spreading misinformation here but I don’t think it’s me.
I think it’s at least as plausible an explanation as Israel deciding to piss away the most goodwill it’s had in decades by bombing a hospital parking lot for absolutely no reason other than to kill some civilians.
It hit a parking lot at the hospital, not the actual building. Here’s an Initial analysis that was posted elsewhere on Lemmy.
When they’re firing thousands of these things? I think it’s possible.
I don’t have a dog in this fight. It’s a religious war that will go on until long past my years here.
if you look at the images there is hardly any property damage. there is no crater. there are a few busted windows and some charred cars. not an expert but it wasnt some kind of WMD. and im not entirely sold on the 500 mark either.
its not gymnastics. israel is flattening gaza with bombs and has attacked “safe” escape routes. im not denying that. but hamas also has awful equipment and little military training, misfires are expected.
Israel couldn’t have hoped for a more favorable outcome, how fortunate.
They could have done damage to the hospital proper, that would have been more favorable in this escalation plot you nailed down. Why another escalation is needed after raids are already commencing, I dunno, the plot is just so dastardly. The anti-israel riots after this event are undoubtedly going to be used by Israel to give carte blanche to start striking Gaza! Oh wait, that was already happening. A plan so good it is accomplished before it starts.
Also the density of Gaza would make it more probable than not that hamas/Islamic jihad bombs would land in population dense spots when they land short. You don’t hear about the IJ bombs that didn’t land in hospital parking lots, and assuming otherwise would be rife with logical fallacies.
All in all these events gave Israel nothing that they didn’t already have, and stalled Arab meetings to boot. IJ got a pr coup from uncritical media, and the whole event has been muddied into useless circles.
Just like Iraq had WMDs.
This line really doesn’t mean that much anymore after critics used it to say the claims that Russia was going to invade Ukraine were untrue.
Healthy skepticism is warranted, but let’s not use arguments that have become hollow.
It’s not a hollow argument, the US has a long history of blatantly lying for political reasons. And the Iraq lie resulted in the US murdering 1 million+ Iraqis, acting like it’s irrelevant because you don’t want to hear criticism of the US is a bullshit response.
And people repeatedly said this about the US claiming Russia was going to invade Ukraine. How did that go?
What makes you think this is the only rocket that misfired? We just wouldn’t hear about one that crashed into an empty piece of desert.
Palestinians lie, and the world blames Jews, then the world targets Jews, and when the truth finally comes out, no one apologizes, the hurt and blood cannot be rescinded, because “The Jews deserved it anyway”
I would love to see their proof that this wasn’t Israel. Israel showed footage taken 40 minutes after the attack as proof that it wasn’t them.
What proof is the pentagon going on? The pentagon is a US military entity that is heavily involved already with promoting and disseminating Israeli propaganda. I, and many others, will not believe it until we see proof.
Do you seriously want to see a video of a hospital full of women and children blow up? The fuck is wrong with you?
You listen to a doctor when they recommend you something because they are professionals dedicated to their job but hypocritically reject the same kinds of information from other sources full of dedicated professionals without issues.
The United States government is quite possibly the least trustworthy organization in the entire world and I have absolutely 0 faith for them to accurately provide any information that would in any way be detrimental to them or their allies.
The Israeli state is an active apartheid state that confines Palestinians to large ghettos and legally deprives them of their human rights. They have spent the last 70 years continually committing atrocities and war crimes against Palestinian men, women, and children. Their defense minister recently referred to Palestinians as “human animals,” and they are being led by a man who has been openly genocidal towards Palestine for the last 30 years. I literally do not trust a single word that comes from the Israeli state on absolutely anything. They have lied continuously since this conflict began and are openly racist and discriminatory towards Muslims. I have no doubt in my mind that a military that routinely shoots journalists and medical staff would bomb this hospital. They have already bombed other hospitals since this conflict began.
There is a huge difference between the intricacies of biology and of where a fucking missile came from. They would provide proof if they had it. They have every single reason to want Israel’s name cleared. Even cropped video footage or whatever data they have. I will believe it when I see it.
There is plenty of evidence out now.
Its also normal for hamas to try to politicaly exploit the situation. On the other hand Israel has done things like that before, so it wouldn’t be completely out of character.
The israeli, palestinian, russian, chinese and american governments are quite possibly the least trustworthy organizations in the entire world and I have absolutely 0 faith for them to accurately provide any information that would in any way be detrimental to them or their allies.
Ftfy
Feel free to add to the list of shitholes whose propaganda nobody wants.
The Catholic Church belongs on that list
Edit: also the Protestant sects
Fuck yea they do. I’d like to add the rest of the governments of the world as well.
Hey now, leave Rojava out of this, they’re doing some really cool stuff out there
I am unable to rebuke your comment and only can say that it is coherent and valid.
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I’ve seen more people blaming muslim/palestine for this war and say they deserved it than people blaming jews instead of the zionist for causing this war. You all really like to use jew as a criticism shield don’t you.
I don’t see Jews giving out candy and celebrating on the street when Palestinians are killed. But that’s what is happening here in Germany when Hamas kill and kidnap Israelis. Some Palestinians and their supporters celebrate this.
That is because it’s not a war between Jew and Palestinian, it’s a war between Israel and Palestine, and Israeli are the one celebrating when Palestinian are killed.
Confused? Don’t be, just ask yourself why it’s always have to lump all Jewish people together when people merely criticising Israel(the government), but when talking about Palestine it’s only on to Palestinian(which it should be) .
I don’t heard about any celebrations of Jews or Israelis because of the bombings. I am sure you can post some links?
Here are Muslims and/or Palestinians and/or pro-Palestine-protestors celebrating the attack on Israel:
https://taz.de/Hamas-Unterstuetzer-in-Berlin/!5962283/
There is more, these are just the first I could find from Germany.
I’m not even talking about the celebration.
Ohh right before i forgot, and i know it’s irrelevant to the point i’m making, but here you go
Have you been on the internet in the past week? Sure politicians and newspapers are generally more towards that kind of statement but Lemmy and Twitter are basically flooded with solidarity with Palestine and yesterday I saw multiple threads about this incident with sources that claimed it was Israel which had people being all “of course they would do that” and if the article was about Israel denying involvement the most comments were not believing that.
Some people started spraying stars of David on houses where Jews live in Berlin yesterday and another person threw a Molotov at a synagogue.
There is a shitton of anti-zionist rhetoric out there which fluently merges with anti-semitism
While i acknowledge there’s extremist out there and neo nazi joining the fray, and you should acknowledge that the call to violence by Israeli government is indirectly causing the fatal stabbing of a kid and his mother, the thing is, i don’t see anything anti-semitism on the post you’re talking? All they were doing is doubting the word of Israeli Government because they lied, lied, lied, and lied, but i never see this sort of comment hurling at all Jew, it’s only the “other side” that keep bringing jew in whenever israel is being criticised.
Well i wouldn’t say “never”, but close.
The IDF has launched missiles at hospitals and schools in the past, and then claimed that they were “Hamas strongholds”.
They have no credibility. A fact that Hamas is actively exploiting. Not that Hamas has any credibility, either.
A fact that Hamas is actively exploiting.
By being equally as un-trustworthy.
Man I can’t wait 60 years for the DoD or CIA to declassify these documents that show otherwise.
Seriously you should check out some of the stuff the CIA has declassified. Some insane involvement and coverups of so many incidents, wars, overthrows, uprisiings, etc.
I even learned Chuck Yeager had his personal beechcraft bombed by the IAF, and he was so pissed that he listed it as a PAF loss in his 1971 war report lol. He also confirmed PAF’s 3:1 k/d, and interviewed all the captured IAF pilots.
All back when Nixon was running the show, so who knows what other stuff went down.
Is Islamic Jihad distinct from Hamas?
It is a different group. How much they align with each other and/or cooperate, I do not know.
Hamas is the closest thing to a real government that Palestine has. Hamas has stated a willingness to accept a 2 state solution, they used to want all the land back but now they just want peace. Some countries like NZ take the time to differentiate between Hamas (not terrorists, political arm) and Qassam Brigades (the terrorist military arm of Hamas).
As far as I have read PIJ is just terrorist who wanna kill all Israelis.
If they (Hamas) really wants two state solutions he would not have blown up Israel indiscriminately.
Remember when we almost had peace but then a Kahanist assassinated Rabin?
Sounds like a very distant fairy tale.
So how is it even related with the issue at hand again? Another make up link of two unrelated incidents?
Hamas is a violent terrorist group whose sole aim is to visit suffering on Israel and it’s people.
The Palestinian Authority is the closest thing to a government that Palestine has and, while it’s corrupt and ineffective, it’s leagues better than Hamas which runs Gaza as a violent gang.
… differentiate between Hamas (not terrorists, political arm) and Qassam Brigades (the terrorist military arm of Hamas).
So kind of like Sinn Féin vs the IRA, this makes sense.
And here we go with the latest attempt at propaganda to make Hamas look like the victims. Yeah, what you said is full of lies. Especially the part about Hamas wanting any kind of solution where Israel exists.
Yes, you can usually find it abbreviated as PIJ and supposedly has ties to Iran
And the US’s official statement was that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and we needed to invade. Sure…
Since this discussion comes again and again and again, here a Crosspost from a similar thread that shows the „morning after“:
So this here is the current view on the area where supposedly about 500 people died. Also there are allegedly more than 300 wounded.
Questions I personally have:
- where is the rubble and where is the bomb crater?
- why does the building seem undamaged?
- how do you fit 800 people in this parking lot?
Most of those cars don’t even have displaced metal like an explosion, most of it is charred in a secondary fire. Plus what infrastructure does Palestine have to clear the supposed 500+ bodies? Do they have a first world crisis response group hiding somewhere?
I’d say less then a couple dozen could have possibly died given the impact crater and damage, and that’s assuming all cars were loaded with people and they got instantly trapped and burned to death which probably didn’t happen.
There’s so many points of “this seems unlikely” on the Hamas side that it’s not worth taking them seriously about it. It’s propaganda through and through. We have more than enough actual documented war crimes from Israel that this “boy who cried wolf” shit is just going to exacerbate their victimhood through discrediting the very real things that they have done wrong as being “probably also propaganda.”
It was also their official statement that Russia was going to invade Ukraine.
The intelligence agencies actually concluded that Iraq might have weapons of mass destruction. It was the Bush administration that spun it as a certainty and created the lie that they definitely had them.
You mean to tell me there hasn’t been President America running things for 200+ yrs straight?
Uncle Sam has been pulling the strings all this time
Yeah but this time there’s video
I don’t consider the Pentagon to be a reliable source for information when they have a vested interest in the conflict. Remember when they said Saddam Hussain had “weapons of mass destruction” which was used to justify the Iraq invasion? Well there never were any. The Pentagon manufactured that disinformation, and media parroted it like loyal puppets.
Yeah why are people believing this? I’m sure someone will quietly peddle it back just like they did with the “40 beheaded babies” lie. This is blatant information warfare.
What vested interest does the DoD have in this conflict?
Same as any other conflict… maintain the interests of US govt. and by extension rich oligarchs who have the house and Senate in their pockets.
The US State Department has a long-standing strong alliance with the Israelis. Billions of dollars of weaponry is sold to the Israeli military yearly, with a direct profit for the US defense industry.
Israeli airstrikes killing civilians hasn’t stopped weapon sales before, so why would the pentagon lie about this one instance?
This reads like: “we investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong”…
Yeah, the CIA famously never lies about this stuff on behalf of their country’s military interests!
i believe Hamas would do it on purpose just to make Israel look bad… it probably wasn’t even a mistake… i mean, they use their own people as meat shields all the time, it wouldn’t be a surprise if they bombed their own kids…
Israel doesn’t need help to look bad, fucking despicable.
gaza is about the size of jersey and one of the most crowded cities in the world. if you shoot 1 ton missiles into a crowd of people to hit one target, chances are you are going to hit more than just your target
Israel is the size of New Jersey. Gaza is something like 140 Sq miles.
they would do it on purpose
or perhaps israel kills people on purpose when shooting those missiles?
it doesn’t matter what else, perhaps… i know Hamas would do it, just to intensify the conflict… and so does everyone else…
Yeah, I don’t think so.
You can think whatever you like, but that means you either have to ignore all the evidence indicating that you’re wrong, or you have to have additional evidence to prove you’re right. You not liking something doesn’t count as evidence.
Firstly, there is plenty of evidence that counters the claim. Secondly, your willingness to believe the US security state at its word is evidence in itself of how many of you people are susceptible to propaganda.
I reached independently the same conclusion before these news sites which you can verify by going thru my post history. This is not me taking their word for it. They’re just confirming my prior analysis.
If you have evidence to the contrary I’m interested in seeing it.
Could you share your insights on how you made your conclusion?
You can find the video/picture evidence in my comment history from few days ago.
There’s videos from several different angles showing a rocket salvo being fired from Gaza towards Israel where you can see the explosion at the hospital. It was most likely a malfunctioning unguided rocket from fired by Hamas. The bombs Israel is using are much bigger and guided meaning if they had targeted the hospital they would’ve also hit the hospital and there would be nothing left of it. Now all we have is few burnt cars on a parking lot where the rocket hit with no even visible crater on the ground. That damage perfectly matches the kind of damage caused by their mostly home-made rockets.
Then there’s also the initial claims about “leveled hospital building” and “500 people dead” but recent aerial images shows the hospital still very much intact. Also intentionally targeting a hospital while under immense scrutiny from international media doesn’t seems like the smartest thing to do.
Okay, I have seen some compiled sources that show that israyel is continuously changing their narrative. That’s the only evidence I have.
Well that is suspicious, I’ll admit that. However I doubt the advisor for prime minister has real time access to information about military operations so it’s most likely that his comments on it are based on news/social media sources that later turned out to be incorrect.
So far, there appears to be no conclusive evidence to determine who was behind the second blast, the one that hit al-Ahli hospital. A number of organisations have suggested that the relatively small crater left by the attack appears incompatible with weapons habitually launched by Israel.
Marc Garlasco, a military adviser at the PAX Protection of Civilians team, noted the impact point did not appear to be consistent with the 500, 1000 or 2000-pound bombs used in Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) used by Israel, according to the Bellingcat report.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=60EK-3-kGLI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You don’t need counter -evidence if you recognize the source as unreliable and biased, which it is.
The fact that you choose to take the US government at face value doesn’t mean anyone else has to.
I don’t understand people who do that, to be honest.
They have repeatedly lied to their own citizens about health and safety. There are multiple channels dedicated to talking about the superfund sites within the US. Most of the time, the people who lived in these horribly toxic areas were lied to by the government, and were told that they were safe. It has led to a large number of injuries, deaths, and deformities. The government regularly refused to acknowledge the harm until it was way to late to stop the people from being afflicted. I would never fully trust someone who allowed children to play in lead dust, and I especially wouldn’t trust someone who told them it was safe to do so.
I know my country’s government wouldn’t be much better to trust at face value, realistically. So, I don’t.
Historically, blindly trusting a government can turn out very badly. The people in office are human, so it only makes sense that some of them may be corrupt.
Trust the US intelligence and defense capabilities bro. They never fake data or mislead the public. This is not like the time in the past when they fake information to justify foreign policies.
I’m just gonna say this:
For a parking lot that was directly hit by a rocket, the cars barely moved and stayed intact more than United 93, the buildings right next to said parking lot stood stronger than the World Trade Center, and I’ve seen potholes bigger than the crater they found.
Now that biden has left the area the media will change the narrative again because more and more evidence coming forward shows that it wasn’t a hamas rocket that did it
https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057
and just listen to this sound:
https://twitter.com/citizenjournos_/status/1714454679394951567
This wouldn’t be the first time that either side denies the attack, and months later the truth comes out.
My first assumption is that the aggressive occupying genocidal regime is lying, but that video shows that they can’t see a rocket that did it but if it was a misfire from the ground we wouldn’t see it either. So I cant see how this is definitive.
Regardless of who did it Israel regularly kills civilians anyway so they are still cunts.
It’s obviously not definite. But neither is Israel’s evidence , which is the same evidence.
I think israel and the USA know, they have eyes everywhere, satellites, starlink, awacs, drones. There is definitely proof of who did this. Since israel has failed to provide that proof, i tend to believe they want to hide the truth until a later date when it won’t matter anymore.
I’m on board to think the worst of Israel at any given moment, in fact even if this wasn’t them it is still as a result of their policies and actions as an apartheid regime committing a genocide.
Fuck the US for appeasing Jewish Hitler.
If anyone made it as far as the third sentence in the article, they might notice that “Islamic Jihad” in the title refers to “Palestinian Islamic Jihad”.
They’re not blaming Hamas for this incident. PIJ is a separate organisation.
