I can’t give more approval for this woman, she handled everything so well.
The backstory is that Cloudflare overhired and wanted to reduce headcount, rightsize, whatever terrible HR wording you choose. Instead of admitting that this was a layoff, which would grant her things like severance and unemployment - they tried to tell her that her performance was lacking.
And for most of us (myself included) we would angrily accept it and trash the company online. Not her, she goes directly against them. It of course doesn’t go anywhere because HR is a bunch of robots with no emotions that just parrot what papa company tells them to, but she still says what all of us wish we did.
(Warning, if you’ve ever been laid off this is a bit enraging and can bring up some feelings)
HR are all class traitors. Their sole purpose in life is to pay you as little as possible and protect the people at the top who are stealing everyone elses’ profits. Fuck anyone working in HR.
This is the nature of the HR as a sector, not the ppl that work there. The lumberjack is not responsible for the deforestation. If you dont have any collective to help ppl stand their ground they will only follow orders to buy the milk.
You’re the kind of fool who thinks some of the nazis weren’t bad, they were just following orders.
You literally compared HR workers with the nazis, and you are not the first I saw in this thread, wtf are you all eating? You talk with ppl like that IRL?
Meh. Maybe they are just tired of the people who don’t really do anything acting like they are top shit.
Yeah, exactly like nazis
Literally no, moron. You are fundamentally incapable of understanding that workers actually do work and HR literally is tasked with protecting the boss and company. It’s their job. They’d be fired if they were perfectly moral you fucking idiot. They’re REQUIRED to “just follow orders”. That’s the point.
That’s why we’re blaming the position: The position itself is immoral when the boss is immoral, just like a Nazi soldier holding a gun and aiming at allies is immoral. It doesn’t fucking matter that it’s his job. The problem is the job exists in the first place, you pillock.
Yeah, so your solution for the capitalism is all HR resign? I love how you feel so smarter even so is completely incapable to think over a simple provocation. You are not even comparing the police, the state force that actually kill to protects the capital, with the Nazis, you are comparing the HR, like firing ppl and killing ppl had a “moral” equivalence to keep a political system.
And to glue this shit argument you use this abstract"morality" that have no meaning, exactly like a conservative would do.
You are not even aware that your hate against HR is exactly what your boss want, HR and middle managers exists with no other purpose than ppl stupid like you to hate them instead of the boss, and keeps the grindmill running.
You are much closer to a Nazi person than an HR that hates his Job, cause your hate is in the exactly place the leader wants, against workers and not against him.
You are too far of the reality to being so angry, maybe you should go to Twitter, there is a lot like you there.
The lumberjack is harvesting wood which the population as a whole benefits from. They aren’t taking a side of one class vs the another class. Sure I would like them to harvest responsibly but even if they don’t they are still adding value to civilization.
HR is not the same thing. When is the last time they actually helped you? I remember once the employee health insurance was giving me problems covering a medication for my wife and the HR bitch is taking the insurance company side. Telling me how they nice they were at contract time. Yeah mouthbreather of course they are nice, they scammed us out of money and you let it happen.
Ok, cut out the middleman and get fired face to face by someone even more profit motivated and psychopathic and disinterested in your person.
Pretty sure they don’t do that in the US cause the 2nd Amendment apparently says that we aren’t allowed to disarm a fucking toddler in this country, so the guns outnumber the citizens.
The people doing the firing were lawyers, not HR, but you are absolutely right. If you are told to fire a bunch of people illegally, the only moral response is to refuse and if pressed, document publicly what happened (and quit or be fired yourself).
Following orders is no excuse.
That really isn’t true, and you would know that if you were actually familiar with HR.
HR, for stuff like this, is just the messenger. Some exec told them to fire people, and gave them a directive on who to fire. The HR reps couldn’t answer her questions because they likely don’t know the answer.
Yes, the job of HR is to protect the company, but mostly that’s protecting the company from the company breaking labor laws.
But, I’m sure I’ll get downvoted to hell because the hive mind loves to shit on HR, which is exactly what the execs are wanting. They’re scapegoats.
I worked in HR for a while and 80% of the job was telling managers/execs “you can’t do that to an employee”. It was defending the employee, arguing for better programs, planning events for employees/associates/team members. I paid for a Christmas event out of my own pocket one year because I was told there was no funding. I never got badmouthed or trashed by a manager. But after fighting everyday for associates it was really disheartening to see them say stuff like the person youre replying too. It’s one reason people who aren’t corporate shills get out of HR. You spend your day advocating for people and they turn around and spit in your face. After awhile you just ask yourself why am I turning myself inside out for these people who hate me?
I’ve literally never worked at a company where HR advocates for the workers. In 20 years, I haven’t seen it happen a single time.
The HR team at the company I work for absolutely advocates for me and my coworkers. Their job is to protect the company’s interests and the workers being empowered is in line with the company’s interests. A close friend and coworker had a PM try to deny her benefits (both PTO and insurance) and HR stepped in on her behalf and forced the company to give her what she was owed. The HR team is always available to answer questions about how insurance works and how to plan for retirement, plus they go out of their way to host a yearly Christmas party and other major events. The companies you worked at might have had bad HR teams, but that doesn’t mean every HR team is bad.
Yes, the job of HR is to protect the company, but mostly that’s protecting the company from the company breaking labor laws.
No, it’s protecting the company from the consequences of breaking labor laws like the WARN Act, which may well apply in this employee’s case.
Companies love to break the law. Wage theft is bigger than any other form of theft in the US. What companies don’t like is to be exposed breaking labor laws, or suffer wage audits, or having to answer to pesky individual suits from disgruntled workers they assume couldn’t fight back but miraculously did.
Every single HR rep I have ever known – and that includes the ones I knew as friends outside work – made a knowing and openly acknowledged choice to check their conscience at the door to accept and keep those HR jobs.
You can justify it however you like, but it’s a choice, each and every time you lie, and it is for HR reps too. It’s just a more direct path to the paycheck and yearly bonuses for them: they literally get paid to lie, to hide, to fraudulently conceal illegal acts, and especially patterns of illegal acts, taking place within the company they represent, and to destroy and deny the existence of evidence whenever the rare employee who can fight back raises their head above the parapet.
And as a person who spent years in corporate America, I can’t even begin to tell you the actual illegal (and completely heartless and amoral) shit I have personally laid eyes on, like when I temporarily had to work at someone else’s desk: a low-level but long-term housekeeping employee who was injured on the job had asked to return to light duty for a few weeks in a letter with medical documentation attached, and I had to sit there with it all spread out on the desk in front of me with a sticky note attached to it saying “Let’s draw a line under this, find a reason to fire her” staring me in the face.
If someone literally wants to lie for a living and be the dog that eats the other dog today, that’s on them. But stop trying to act like that’s NOT exactly how it is.
“Don’t hate HR! We’re not the master, just his trained attack dogs!”
Being a shield against the decisions of upper management is the kind of class traitor work the person above is talking about. HR’s job is taking that kind of decision and turning it into something that can be executed with the least likelihood of an office shooting or lawsuit. Whether either of those things are warranted or not.
I am very familiar with HR at multiple fortune 500 corporations.
You’re so close to getting the point. You realize HR are the executives’ scapegoats. HR’s purpose is to serve the rich assholes fucking everyone else over. Anyone working HR is complicit whether they’re intelligent enough to realize it, or just a useful idiot. Execs want and need their scapegoats. People should realize this and avoid HR (class traitor) jobs.
Just don’t get a job in HR and no one can get fired. It’s that easy guys.
HR is a legitimate job and serves and important purpose in the structure of a company. You can’t dismiss it by saying their purpose is to serve rich assholes because that’s the purpose of every job at a company. That’s work, that’s most jobs.
Except HR’s entire purpose is to insulate management. They’re not exactly producing anything
Production of goods is not relevant at all there are plenty of valid jobs that do not produce anything. Having an HR department in a large company allows other departments to focus on what they are good at and have HR handle all the employee contracts, hiring, firing, complaints, performance reviews, leave etc.
All those tasks you listed are really the responsibility of management. HR is basically the grease between the decisions of upper management and the reactions of the lowly prawns
HR exists to insulate people with real authority in a business from those who suffer from their whims. In a lot of companies, your job is to get yelled at so some ghoulish C level executive isn’t forced to strain their neurons processing the emotional reality of the fact that their decisions impact real people in negative ways. It might disrupt their “objectivity” and make it harder to issue layoffs next time.
The worst thing is that there are many bootlickers out there. Worker rights are a joke and companies have infinite ways of fucking you over.
In this instance the HR snakes were caught with their pants down and looked like imbeciles.
But for example many people get placed on PiP with unrealistic goals, or harassed by management over petty mistakes. The only goal being saving the corporation some money by claiming low performance.
A lot of people out there need to get their head out of their asses if they think this is ok.
HR is working their script, or they will be fired too. It’s like a fucking callcenter to destroy people.
This. I don’t think people here realize that HR doesn’t really have a say in this, they aren’t the ones doing the firing and they aren’t the ones who can undo it since they aren’t the ones providing the team’s budget.
HR’s job in these situations is to do the dirty part: handle the announcement to each employee.
The girl in the video is saying that her manager was “pleased” and she didn’t understand why strangers in the HR department are doing the announcement to her: that’s the whole point, it’s very likely that it’s that “nice” manager who threw you under the bus when he had to make a choice on which people he needs to keep after top management told him to downsize his team but he didn’t have the guts to tell you that personally.
We’re all complicit, but HR volunteered to be complicit.
Link’s not working
Try it again, I had to change something on the video site and I think it reconfigured it, but I see views coming through now
I couldn’t get it to work either. What did you say in it?
Edit: got it to work on the duck duck go browser
Still doesn’t work for me, I get this message:
Content unavailable Reach out to the creator to obtain the full URL for access.
I got what when I clicked on the expand within the window (kbin) but clicking the title as the link worked.
Not sure what the comparable parts are for Lemmy, but if there are two options you might want to see if the other one works.
If anyone ever thinks differently, this video should convince you.
If you work for a corporation, you are not a person with a name, you are a number. And that number is the amount of money given to you as pay and benefits.And when the corporation no longer likes your number, you can be unceremoniously shown the door, regardless of your past performance.
Unless you’re apart of a strong union. Then they think twice before firing you.
Loved it when she asked if performance indicators were real or just something they use as an excuse. Plus pointing out that they aren’t going to explain after she is fired, since she won’t be an employee anymore.
I hope she finds another job that doesn’t treat her like shit.
They didn’t actually have performance indicators, nor any poor performance data. When she asked for their evidence, they said they could get it later. In my head that translates to “We don’t actually have the data.”
“We can talk about that later.”
“We can’t go into specifics at the moment.”
“This isn’t the form, or the situation where we can go into detail.”
I love her response:
“But then when? If it’s not right when I’m getting fired then it’s certainly not going to be after when I’m no longer part of the company.”
Ok, I understand the point of recording this but…she is very young, and likely this is her first time being laid off. I know, it’s shocking. Except for me, who had to console the person that came to get me to be laid off who was much more upset than I was, but I digress.
Here’s the thing. You’re being laid off. There is nothing you can say or do to change that. The people doing the firing were likely brought in specifically for that job, and they know nothing more than what management has told them. Your manager had absolutely no say in the matter, this decision was made 3 levels higher than them. Your manager likely didn’t even know until about an hour before you are let go. I know you’re upset, I know you’re frustrated, I know you’re likely not thinking straight. But it’s happening, whether you like it or not. You can ask why you’re being let go, but they can’t tell you what they don’t know. And even worse, they’ve had this exact same conversation at least 50 times that day. The first instinct is to make it awkward and difficult for them, but this is their job and they are use to it.
Confirm your information. Make sure you can follow up on next steps and get your employment insurance claim started immediately. If you can, make sure you can still contact your actual manager for a reference afterwards. Usually you can find out more about what really happened at the same time. Just get as much information as you can about what they will provide you for the aftermath. Then once you get off the call…scream. Cry. Jump up and down with joy, if that’s how you feel. Just let it out. You’re going to be feeling a lot of emotion, so just let it out. Go home, explain what happened to your family of you have one. Let them scream and cry if they have to. And then try to sleep.
The next morning will feel weird not having to get up to go to work. Enjoy it. Take the first week to yourself. Get your employment insurance claim going and all the paperwork for that. But take time to decompress so you can be ready for the next move. Work on some of those home projects you’ve been putting off because you were too busy with your job. Take time to spend with family. Just don’t worry about finding a job yet. The emotions from the last job will still be raw, so you don’t want to bring that to an interview. Let yourself adjust to the new routine before you dive headfirst into a job search. When you’re ready to start your job search, you don’t want those emotions clouding your judgement and avoiding jobs that you think are too close to your old job. A little distance will help to put things into perspective.
And remember, it’s not the end of the world. You’ll find another job. You just need to be open to the possibilities. But you can’t do that of you’re still pissed off to the eyeballs. Take the time to let it go and truly move on.
I don’t think you understand the problem. The issue is that some of these people might actually believe they did something wrong, or didn’t measure up. That is the problem. They should just be honest.
There’s no law against laying people off because you hired too many people and need to downsize. They are using performance as a reason because they think (and in many cases, they’ll be right) it will subdue the person being laid off from a position of anger or resent, to a position where they’re upset with themselves for not measuring up.
It’s a really bad way to do this, for the person being laid off.
So, yes. Asking about the fictional performance metrics to at least make them feel a little uncomfortable too is completely fine in my opinion.
All of your advice is sound enough, but the point of this video was more to demonstrate that Cloudflare (and absolutely other companies) are specifically avoiding “layoff” language in favor of firings based on “performance” to avoid paying these people even the paltry amount in unemployment they would receive. It’s not just that they’re being laid off.
The excuse might be “performance”, but they are being fired without cause officially. They can still apply for employment insurance. This is just standard procedure. Being fired with cause opens them up to lawsuits, so most companies avoid that whenever possible. Especially when they are firing multiple people like this.
Being fired without cause means an employee is being let go, but not because of any serious workplace misconduct. Conversely, being fired with cause means the employee committed a serious breach of conduct in their workplace, which led to their termination.
Citing performance is citing cause. You’re wrong and others are right in that citing performance is an attempt to demonstrate cause to avoid severance and/or unemployment. A “layoff” is without cause and entitles them to those benefits.
Again, it doesn’t matter what they tell you. It only matters what they report to the government. If it’s with cause and you have proof they are lying, you can sue for wrongful dismissal. But they won’t do that. They will report it as without cause, because that’s just easier. They don’t owe her severance because she was only there for 4 months, but she will qualify for at least some employment insurance.
Again, it doesn’t matter what they tell you.
Wrong again. It very much matters what they tell you because by law they’re not required to tell you anything. They can terminate employment for no reason. Giving a reason is citing cause.
The employer might not fight an unemployment claim but if, for example, they cited performance in the termination meeting and then the employee finds out the employer had made age discriminatory comments, kind of like you did, about them, there’s grounds for wrongful termination.
You seem intent on ignoring the fact that the conversation during a termination from the employee perspective is crucial because companies can, and do, lie to protect themselves.
There’s also special conditions and requirements that go along with a reduction in force (layoffs due to overstaffing) that companies try to sidestep by listing a different reason for the termination.
Pointing out the truth is not “age discrimination”. It’s obvious that she is very upset in the video, and that this is probably the first time she’s been in this situation. It’s also obvious that the manager and HR person have gone through this conversation many times already. There is nothing that they could say that would satisfy her. The HR person literally says that. They are giving her the response they were told to give her. Yes, its bullshit, but it doesn’t matter until it’s written down. This video isn’t the “gotcha” that she thinks it is. Without the video, it’s her word against written documentation. And of course the company is going to protect themselves, that’s why they won’t report it as with cause. All this video did was show her inexperience. Unfortunately we’ll never see the update where she tells us what they reported on the written documents.
The point is, laying all these people off with performance as reason protects Cloudflare in not having to pay extra (which would be legally needed if the employee was not at fault).
This is probably not any kind of proof she can use, but it does make people aware of how Cloudflare operates.
It’s understandable companies have to fire people and as an employee you’d probably do best to accept the harsh reality of a business. But if they really communicate fake causes with lay-offs (not only hurting the employee mentally, but also financially bypassing rightful compensation by law), this should be known by the public.
To be fair though, we cannot confirm her statements to be true either. But I think it’s an interesting share nonetheless.
Hmm, but the HR people said they didn’t have any documentation, and if she hasn’t had a bad performance review prior to this meeting then there isn’t a paper trail showing poor performance.
If they generate some documentation after this meeting that shows poor performance, wouldn’t that kind of be a smoking gun for a fraud case? Because it seems pretty clear that the intent is to defraud her of unemployment benefits by claiming that she was fired with cause.
You are wrong. Just stop.
Your opinion isn’t binding. Please show me the documented proof that she was fired with cause. This video is nothing but rage bait.
Somebody needs to tell Brittany Pietsch and her laid off coworkers about the WARN Act and its state counterparts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraining_Notification_Act_of_1988
Just because Cloudflare really really needs for Brittany and her laid off coworkers to believe that it’s all individual firings based on performance and related measurements, in order to avoid the legally mandated costs of laying off a group of employees, that desire to avoid fair payment does not make this anything less than a layoff.
While there are certainly exceptions to the WARN Act and similar laws, chances are excellent that if Ms. Pietsch and her coworkers take a look at it in light of their own specific experiences, they can come to a MUCH more equitable resolution than the shit on a plate with a side of material misrepresentation handed to them by the HR and legal reps at Cloudflare.
EDITED TO ADD: Should she ever see this, I am in awe and nothing short of proud of how she handled this from beginning to end, and the balls it took to post this exposé to TikTok. Wishing her, and everyone taking an unfair corporate dicking, the very best.
Video won’t load for me, website seems dodgy so I’m not going to bend over backwards to make it work.
Odysee is one of the biggest distributed video hosting platforms, equivalent to PeerTube. It’s not sketch, but the embed isn’t working for some reason. That is on the instance admin.
I wouldn’t expect a website like this to be embedded, not from a url to the page.
The website absolutely is sketchy, there’s plenty of dodgy connections eg Facebook and Google. Why use an alternative to YouTube when you’re’ still connecting to Google??
Dang that sucks, I always wanted to work there and recently applied eagerly because I haven’t seen much controversy from them.
More than half of the Wikipedia article for Cloudflare is made up of a Controversies section
She did really good! Almost drove it home, she was so close… As a former manager in HR, here are my two cents. Note that I’m from canada, might not apply as I have it in mind in the US. If they’re trying to frame a layoff as a firing for cause and poor performance, her first way of handling it is excellent. Ask pointed specific questions on what about your performance was lacking and more importantly can you demonstrate to me that I’ve been communicated clear quantifiable and Timely objectives that I’ve been communicated means and ways to be coached and trained to meet those objectives and that I’ve been communicated milestones of me not meeting objectives, with proper corrective measures and coaching to then change course before a firing for poor performance.
If you can’t communicate any of these to me, the objectives, my performance against his objectives, the milestones, and the coaching I received to meet objectives when I did not, then this is not a poor performance related firing. If you’re missing any of these information then I am not yet terminated and I am at your employment until a subsequent meeting where you can come back with that information. On the other hand if what you meant to say is that this is a layoff because you have hired too many people, and that this letting Go has nothing to do with my performance, okay no problem, let’s talk, but in this case it will be with X months of severance and a glowing recommendation letter.
Lastly I want to make you aware that I’ve recorded this conversation, in which it’s now clearly documented that you have no clear tangible indication of any notion of documented poor performance about me, and thus I am still at the employed of my employer until you either provide those, or provide me with coaching that I then fail to put into practice to meet objectives, or until you come back with the severance package for a layoff that has nothing to do with my performance.
Something along those lines…
As a former manager in HR
I am glad you have moved on to more moral work.
Yeah sure, if she has no emotions I’d say that’d be a great way to handle it.
Unfortunately she’s trying to keep herself composed while going through an extremely traumatic event in her life. A layoff is something that may seem routine for you - but for me I still process through my layoffs years later. She’s holding back tears. I held back tears. I’d say she did remarkably well while having her life plans crumble around her.
I put 100% of the blame on HR and the company - even if it’s completely her fault for getting fired I wouldn’t put any blame on her for not using the perfect wording.
Removed by mod
why can’t corporations just do things in a reasonable and rational way?
Why do they constantly make so many extreme changes all the time? When they need to hire more people, they hire way more than they need, when they need to downsize…or rather when they’re tired of paying so many people, they fire way too many.
Why would they care, people are just tools to them.
Quarterly bonuses. Some jackass sees that labor budget is going to go over and he won’t get his bonus.
Because their bottom line is improved in the short term by firing people
They need a union.
We fired ~40 sales people out of over 1,500 in our go to market org. That’s a normal quarter. When we’re doing performance management right, we can often tell within 3 months or less of a sales hire, even during the holidays, whether they’re going to be successful or not. Sadly, we don’t hire perfectly. We try to fire perfectly. In this case, clearly we were far from perfect. The video is painful for me to watch. Managers should always be involved. HR should be involved, but it shouldn’t be outsourced to them, No employee should ever actually be surprised they weren’t performing. We don’t always get it right. And sometimes under performing employees don’t actually listen to the feedback they’ve gotten before we let them go. Importantly, just because we fire someone doesn’t mean they’re a bad employee. It doesn’t mean won’t be really, really great somewhere else. Chris Paul was a bad fit for the Suns, but he’s undoubtedly a great basketball player. And, in fact, we think the right thing to do is get people we know are unlikely to succeed off the team as quickly as possible so they can find the right place for them. We definitely weren’t anywhere close to perfect in this case. But any healthy org needs to get the people who aren’t performing off. That wasn’t the mistake here. The mistake was not being more kind and humane as we did. And that’s something @zatlyn and I are focused on improving going forward.
-Matthew Prince
Co-Founder & CEO, CloudflareWhat feedback?? The feedback that said she was doing well from the people familiar with her work? Or the mysterious metrics she was failing to meet but also had no idea about? God, what an out of touch douche nozzle.
Also, if they’re not a fit but still a good employee, LAY THEM OFF. But who wants to pay for all that messy extra stuff when you can just grind through the workforce?
Shocked they actually admitted a mistake here. What will really matter is if they actually change anything.
Did he though? I mean he perfectly sticks to individual shortcomings as the reason and even implies that she ignored feedback.
If he thinks it’s painful to watch then he should apologize personally to HER and her coworkers for traumatizing them, and give them a good severance pay. The way he phrases this as if he’s just shrugging and saying “we’ll do better at some unspecified point in the future, I’m sure” makes him come off as an inhumane piece of garbage with no empathy.
an inhumane piece of garbage with no empathy.
He is a CEO.
This is the same piece of shit ceo trying to force their workers back to office too. Fuck this asshole
