I understand when people speak about the ethical problems with eating meat, but I think they do not apply to fish.
In a global ecological sense, it is worse to eat fish than pork, we are sucking the seas dry, we have known it for decades, and invented new methods to do it more efficiently.
With land animals you can see the conditions and the effect of over production, with fish you don’t, and we keep at it.
Grown fish is less bad, but still contribute to pollution of the seas.
Trawling should be banned globally for a minimum of 50 years.
We have also invented ways to do it more sustainably, and even have handy wallet sized Sustainable Seafood Lists for each region of the US to make sure you make sustainable choices when eating at restaurants or purchasing at the market
Seafood Watch Guides@Alue42 we used to have these in New Zealand. It was a card you could keep in your wallet, listed all the common eating fish from best to worst, with sustainable ones coded green at the top and endangered ones in red.
But it was depressing over the years with each new edition to slowly see all those green fish turning orange and then red as each species became depleted.
I just tried looking for you, and the most up to date I could find was for 2017. That’s disappointing, but slightly out of date is better than nothing.
By 2017 it had already happened - almost all the NZ fish had gone from the green zone and they’d started putting farmed shellfish and stuff caught in international waters at the top of the list to make up for it.
I think those of us who care about our local marine environment seldom eat actual fish now. We don’t really need a guide any more.
“It’s okay to eat fish 'cause they don’t have any feelings.” - Nirvana
I see two concerns, humanitarian and ecological. The ecological concern is only a problem with overconsumption. The humanitarian concern I don’t think applies to fish since they are dumb.
What about bycatch? That’s a factor in both. Also ecological: the fact that most of the plastic waste in the sea (and on earth in general) is from fishing. Also, not all seafood is dumb. Octopus is one of the smartest things out there and we eat that. Lobsters have been shown to feel pain and we boil them alive.
I was referring to the creatures that are commonly thought of when you hear “fish;” salmon, halibut, tuna etc
So you’re only addressing the dumb point… despite some of these not being considered intelligent, they still have central nervous systems and therefore feel pain. That’s a very basic ethical concern. Why is intelligence the only concern? Should we eat all the dumber humans?
Bycatch is also an issue in this point because innocent and more intelligent creatures like dolphin and octopus will be caught, killed and not even eaten.
All I can say is I truly embrace the fact that I’m a human and an omnivore. I don’t deny there are ethical horrors with the way animals are raised for slaughter, it’s quite disgusting in fact. But I ALSO can’t deny that I love eating meat off the bone - chicken wings, spare ribs, steak, you name it. When I’m eating meat I’m very happy indeed. And I don’t try to pretend I can justify it as somehow OK with regard to how the animals are slaughtered.
I’m a walking contradiction in many regards. I don’t try to reconcile my love of meat with my love of animals. I have both, and they sometimes are in conflict. I eat all kinds of things, veggies and grains and all kinds of stuff, but my primary love is meat. I don’t deny it, and I don’t justify it. It is what it is, and so am I.
Farmed fish is probably not too bad by comparison but… wild caught fish hell no. We’re speed running fucking up the ocean ecosystem and ruining the aquatic biosphere. It always alarms me when I see a change to the species of fish used in “generic budget oven-cook battered fish fillets”. It doesn’t even seem possible to make wild catch fishing sustainable, unlike every other form of animal husbandry where you could argue it’s more of a technical challenge.
Hmm now I realise I’m a hypocrite. Think I’ll stop eating fish
Farmed fish is often worse. The fish are kept in small pens and given tons of antibiotics, polluting the local water. Sometimes those non-native fish escape the pens and interbreed with native species. They are also less nutritious than wild fish, at least when it comes to salmon.
Well, fuck.
There’s no such thing as ethical consumption, so go away and eat whatever you want.
That is not how that axiom works or how it’s actualized lmao
They are certainly a lot of issues with eating fish. Maybe not the same as factory farmed land animals. More along the lines of extinction of species and the destruction of ecosystems. It’s worth looking into if it’s something you are concerned with. There’s also indirect cruelty to more intelligent species like dolphins.
I disagree. The two main arguments against eating land animals are 1) cruelty and deprivation of life and 2) effect on the planet.
Both of these apply. Commercial fishing uses inhumane killing methods and fish are actually quite intelligent.
Overfishing is completely destroying the ocean ecosystems and will even have a knock-on effect on land ecosystems eg salmon in rivers normally transfer masses of nutrients to land and trees via bears etc.
The idea that fish do not experience pain is also ludicrous… They possess a central nervous system and can very much feel pain.
I’m also opposed to catch & release fishing for fun/sport for this reason.
Imagine a hyper-advanced species suddenly and painfully yanked you up into different atmospheric conditions where you’re desperately unable to breathe.
Is it perfectly acceptable just because they put you back down in your natural environment before you died, with a new painful wound and traumatic experience?
I certainly don’t think so…
Their bodies are also formed to exist supported by the water. When taken out their very bodies are crushing their organs. It’s grim.
This depends on how deep the fish lives. For example, where I live, anglers are required to have a descending device on them and ready to go to quickly return a deeper sea fish to the depths without causing it significant harm.
At the same time, all hooks are required to be barbless so as to cause minimal damage to whatever is caught.
It definitely doesn’t. Animal from the deep sea are used to being under higher pressure, that’s an entirely different issue and not what I’m talking about.
Fish of any level will be supported in the water in a way that they won’t in air so they haven’t developed the structure of land animals to keep their organs from crushing each other.
Then there’s a whole host of other issues that occur - https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Physiological-responses-occurring-when-fish-are-removed-from-water-Effects-of-air_fig1_281930182#:~:text=exposure%20can%20be%20considered%20acute,(Ferguson%20and%20Tufts%201992).
Even when only removed from the water for a short time a proportion of the fish die after being put back. When the time is increased to do measurements, take photos, whatever else you want to do, the proportion that die shortly after increases quite quickly.
OP didn’t specify commercial fishing. What about traditional fishing practices, or a singular fisher catching for himself/family?
Commercial fishing just makes it happen at scale a lot more efficiently. If every person who ate fish was out there fishing for themselves, I would imagine it would be a significantly larger impact than the commercial fishing.
You are deliberately not answering the question.
“If every person that ate fish was out there…” exactly - they purchase fish caught commercially because either they don’t know how to catch their own fish or they don’t have access to catch their own fish (access either with time, money, or physically). Commercial fishing solves that by precisely doing it “at scale a lot more efficiently” as you pointed out and ships the fish to where people will purchase it.
I didn’t ask “what if everyone went out and did it themselves”
I asked your thoughts on people who DO fish for themselves, or those using traditional fishing practices.
Fish would eat you if they got the chance.
I don’t think they apply to most animals either, so yes.
Hey everyone, this guy doesn’t believe in ethics so we can all do whatever we want!
I said no such thing. I said the supposed ethical problems with eating animals referenced by OP are not ones I think apply to most animals, and so it is ethical to eat them.
What “supposed” ethical problems are you referring to that you’re hand waving away then? That farm animals are cute? How about overfishing, destruction of marine environments, bycatch, pollution caused by and left in the sea by fishing, evidence that fish feel pain and that some are proven to have more complex intelligence than other animals.
All of the above.
So because eating fish has ethical problems it’s ethical to eat them?
I do not believe there are any ethical problems to eating fish, or most other animals used for meat.
That’s not really how ethical problems work. They are supposed to define why we should or shouldn’t do something. Even saying “nah dawg, fish tasty” would be more reasoning than you’ve provided.
Very well thought out.
Thanks, it’s difficult to have a discussion with people when they won’t actually engage in a discussion.
It is unethical to kill fish. If one must eat fish, wait for it to be in a position like death where it won’t get in the way of anything. Fish are no different from other animals.
He’s my conundrum with that. Other species will not go after animals that are close to death. I’ve worked with a lot of wild animals. The thinking is that if it is dead or close to death they will leave it to the scavengers since they don’t want to risk contracting whatever killed it. Bears, eagles, so many animals are going to hunt healthy fish - bears specifically go after the salmon about to spawn and pass on their genes.
Hunting is part of nature, and not just with fish.
I understand the issue with industrialized/commercial kills, but it’s hunting also off the table in your train of thought? I mean this as a genuine question, not an attack, I know time of choice is often lost through text.
Is hunting/fishing off the table for us as the species with higher intellect? We do not have as robust immune systems as the scavengers of nature do, so waiting for things to be in a position near death is worrisome to me. Whereas hunting/fishing (again, not the industrialized practice, but individual) is how conservation of species was born by developing species limits and it’s how some species levels continue to be kept in check (for instance, invasive lion fish in the US South East)
There is necessity but there is also ethics. Do they clash? Of course. But this clash isn’t unique to the world of the food chain, and in these other situations, there is at least substantial acknowledgement and regret that ethics is being sacrificed. I am not a vegetarian elitist like many people are (I encountered quite a few of those here where I faced the opposite criticism), but I still quietly frown upon the idea of me descending to the mindset of survival at all costs. Keep in mind we live in a world where it’s normal to go from “we need meat to survive” to “let’s eat X exotic animal that absolutely doesn’t have to be the one to sustain us”.
Ok, but what you said tried to toe the line while actually using absolute hyperboles to prove neither point.
Keep in mind we live in a world where it’s normal to go from “we need meat to survive” to “let’s eat X exotic animal that absolutely doesn’t have to be the one to sustain us”.
We actually don’t need meat to survive. While there are species that are indeed obligate carnivores or ones that whose digestive system is more efficient with meat proteins, we are omnivores. It’s even been shown that body builders and athletes can sustain themselves on a vegan diet.
“let’s eat X exotic animal that absolutely doesn’t have to be the one to sustain us”.
While some people get a thrill out of eating the highly illegal species, turning new species into a new food item can be a boon to conservation. Lionfish never used to live in the Florida Keys, then one popped up, then a handful, then all the sudden they were taking over whole reefs and the native species had no where to live. There was no way to get rid of them, they hide under the outcroppings of the reefs, they can’t be caught on a line, no gillnetting, they have to be speared which is NOT easy as government operation or some sort of eradication program. Finally, it caught on how delicious they are and the area started teaching people how to handle the spines and the filet around the venom glands in order to cook them, and it took off like crazy and everyone was in the water to get them! The population hasn’t declined, but it’s somewhat leveled so the local marine species can at least get a toehold again.
And this isn’t the only species with a story like this. So taking on exotic species (plant and animal) in your diet can indeed be a good thing for conservation.
But, the point is I asked if hunting was off the table for us as a species despite it occurring in nature, and if so was it due to our intellect? You responded with hyperboles on both ends that don’t provide an answer.
We actually don’t need meat to survive. While there are species that are indeed obligate carnivores or ones that whose digestive system is more efficient with meat proteins, we are omnivores. It’s even been shown that body builders and athletes can sustain themselves on a vegan diet.
I’m confused then, what are you trying to say? I was saying spare the fish, you argued against that, but now veganism is ideal? Nothing against you, but I’m lost.
I did answer whether or not hunting is off the table. The first few sentences alludes to hunting (a necessity) versus abstaining (ethics). It is ethical not to kill (which hunting is), no? Even farming, though often not great, is morally superior to hunting. You can live off farming, you don’t need hunting. Hunting exotic animals can have good aspects, but it’s still killing, not always necessary anyways, and these good aspects don’t apply to, say, going to a Korean restaurant and lo and behold they have live octopus. If by any chance there are no invasive species, you can do just fine with everyday farm animals (supposing one absolutely had to eat meat). Everyday life isn’t Survivor and deliciousness shouldn’t/doesn’t have to be someone’s whole ideal.
I was showing that your statements are incorrect.
For the third time, yes. I am baffled as to why hunting would be necessary if meat eating isn’t.
So the bears, foxes, deer, egrets, etc are also being unethical and should be damned? Because they absolutely can live without meat but chose to hunt.
What if you kill the fish without warning or pain?
It still wouldn’t be preferred.
Why?
Because killing is killing.
There is loss of fish experience I guess. Or, lack of it. There is no fishly life being lived out, after you quietly kill the fish.
But then who are we to not spawn as many fish as possible, to maximize this good called a fish’s life?
What if we kill the fish without pain or warning, and cause two new fish to be born. Does it pay for the killing of the fish?
It pays back to the world but not to the fish whose life we took. They will forever have to deal with unjust effects inflicted upon them.
When the fish is dead it doesn’t have to deal with anything
When the fish is dead it doesn’t have to deal with anything
My entire ethical framework for what animals are ok to eat is wether or not it’s cute.
I say eat them.
Could you envision a fish so cute you would feel it is unethical to consume it?
Octopodes
Not fish, but absolutely adorable and intelligent and unethical to eat.
I started imagining what it would look like and it was just a baby seal
Was that particular fish a dick?
No but he was gay
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life.
This is necessary.
i mean, animal farming isn’t technically necessary at this point in human and technological evolution
They didn’t say farming is necessary. They said that it was necessary that life feeds on life.
Calm down Aquaman.
What about eating meat is ethical or unethical and how does that apply or not apply to eating fish?
extreme environmental issues, mass execution of innocence, destruction of indigenous culture and land.
theres definitely a couple easy ones to point to.
idk why it wouldnt apply to fish
